Health and Safety

[farmer brown]

Hey all
Quick question regarding Health and Safety and setting up a small scale brewery.

I have just been granted my Premises Licence and now have health and safety to get through. Its just a small 250 liter system so I'm just wondering what they will be interested in? Are they quite lenient with small scale breweries or will they come down on me?

Any advice much appreciated!

Steve

 

[31bb3]

cant really advise you there is a couple of members who have took the plunge

 

[chrig]

Look in to the use of chemicals at work and, food hygiene. Worth thinkinh about knowing fire risks, having large quantities of boiling fluid.

The list becomes endless once you get started, certainly did for me in a professional kitchen

 

[graysalchemy]

In the first instance I would seek advice from Enviromental health and HSE. Be open and honest about what you are doing they should be able to advise. :thumb:

 

[farmer brown]

In the first instance I would seek advice from Enviromental health and HSE. Be open and honest about what you are doing they should be able to advise. :thumb:

Just emailed them now thanks

 

[mixale]

Food safety is covered by your local council.
Their website should have a link so you can register your proposed "food production" site.
They have 28 days to respond and if you don't hear anything then its implied there is no objection.

I applied to my my council for Hemel (Dacorum) and didnot hear anything, and i'm brewing from the garage!
I'm now proceeding to the bits you've just done (personal and premises licensing).

Generally I reckon the food inspectors are to busy chasing burger bars and sandwich vans etc to worry about small brewers.

I know guys that are running a new 10 barrel plant near Heathrow and even they did not get any feedback when contacting their local council.

 

[farmer brown]

Thank you for that, I think I have another week so fingers crossed I wont hear from them!

I just received this regarding my cellar which could slow things down:

The issue in planning terms is whether the use of the basement in this way could be considered an ancillary use to the main residential use or if it constitutes a material change of use. As advised in my email, It is not clear whether this would require permission or not, and whilst I think it wouldn’t need permission (ie I consider that it could be an ancillary use), I would recommend that they apply for a LDC for a formal decision from the council.

So not sure how long this will take now :¬/

 

[ollyb]

When you say you got your premises license, do you mean the HMRC license for beer duty, as opposed the to premises license for selling alcohol to the public?

I find this thread very interesting, as (despite never having brewed in my life) I've got serious designs towards doing something similar in the future. I'll be interested to know how you get on.

In terms of Health and Safety, you don't really need to do anything if you're the only one in there. If you have fewer than 5 employees the rules are pretty lax too. What I would do is have a first aid kit and an eye was kit in a prominent location. Make a risk assessment of things that could go wrong, accompanied by ways to mitigate the risk and what to do if that thing actually happens. Make anyone who goes down there read the risk assessment and sign something to say they have. Especially if you do have to do a change of use on the cellar, so it's no longer a "domestic" room, or whatever. The size of business you'll be, HSE are more interested in seeing that you've acknowledged there are health and safety issues and that you've made a reasonable effort to reduce/mitigate.

The food hygiene stuff via your local council is interesting. I was reading that earlier on the Wiltshire gov website. In not one place did I see the word "drink" or "beverage" in relation to food hygiene, but I would assume it still applies.

 

[farmer brown]

Hey Olly,
I've yet to register with the HMRC but we have just registered a partnership and will go through the correct channels when its come to paying duty, there seems to be a lot of information on that side of things.

I did my personal licence a few months back which was pretty straight forward really. When it comes to thw premises licence I fear its a different story. The brewery will be in a residential area in London so we had to put a notice up for 28 days and luckily there wasn't any objections. The next problem is planning, as its within the grounds of a house its classed as 'change of use' and could involve going through planning permission which I really dont want to do. I personally feel it comes under 'ancillary use to the main residence' as the cellar isn't part of the house as its 2 meters away from the house and underground. They advised me to apply for a 'Lawful Development Certificate', if you want to read more: http://www.planningportal.gov.uk/permis ... ertificate

So now Im awaiting the council to either say yes, its an 'ancillary use to the main residence' so we will now grant you a premises licence or no! You will need to go through planning before we can grant you your licence.

Regarding Health and Safety I agree that as its just me there shouldn't be any problems.. BUT! I think they will want to know what chemicals Ill be using to clean/sanitise and how I will get the kegs from the cellar to my van.

Ill keep you posted, Im sure its not going to be an easy process but I still feel determined! :thumb:

 

[ollyb]

Eek, hope it all goes well!

Did you need the premises license for brewing, or are you planning to sell from home? I was under the impression (probably wrongly) that if you were selling to a bar or distributer, then you only needed to be registered for duty, but if you wanted to sell to the public you needed a personal license, and a premises license if you were doing it from your place of business. Something like a farmers market would/should have its own event license, so you wouldn't need a premises license to sell at those sorts of events.

Is that right, or am I completely off base?

Cheers!

 

[Kinleycat]

If you were setting up a food business (the two are not far removed) you would be issued (you may have to ask though) for a SFBB manual (Safer Food Better Business) from your Local Authority.
This is a working document that can be used to record any relevant info for if and when you get a visit from a Health Inspector, it lasts for a full 12 month period, then you get another one or an insert pack and build up your records.
They are very simple to use, and if you are new to this kind of thing (i dont mean brewing) they are full of useful info. :thumb:

 

[mixale]

Did you need the premises license for brewing, or are you planning to sell from home? I was under the impression (probably wrongly) that if you were selling to a bar or distributer, then you only needed to be registered for duty, but if you wanted to sell to the public you needed a personal license, and a premises license if you were doing it from your place of business. Something like a farmers market would/should have its own event license, so you wouldn't need a premises license to sell at those sorts of events.

Is that right, or am I completely off base?

Cheers!

I don't beleive you need ANY license to brew, but then you need to distribute!!
You're right in that selling to a business that has the neccasary licenses in place you only need to register with HMRC so duty can be paid.
The whole selling to joe public is where the fun starts.
I have a mass market at work waiting to buy my beer but don't feel I can sell yet.
HMRC bit is already done and this month I will have to complete my first return for the beer I've just bottled.

 

[farmer brown]

I didn't realise this? I though Id need a premises licence to sell to pubs? I dont intend to sell to public, just my local pub so am I right in saying I just need a personal licence and register for duty with the HMRC?

I'm sure I have always been told I need a premises if I intend to sell my ale ? I'm also confused about farmers markets?! Again, I just need to personal licence so I can authorise and that's it?

Is there anybody out there who sells to pubs with just a personal licence?

Thanks for all the help.. Much appreciated

 

[ollyb]

I could be wrong, but my understanding was that as a brewer you need just need to be registered for duty to sell to a pub. They themselves will be selling to members of the public, so it's them that have the license.

I did a google search about farmers' markets and found this: http://www.chichester.gov.uk/index.cfm?articleid=3786. They have a link on the page to a word doc with their requirements. While this is one council, it's probably good guidance for farmers markets.

Please don't take what I'm saying as gospel, that's just my understanding. Anyone with actual knowledge may come along and put me right!

 

[ollyb]

Actually, you're probably right, I retract my above statement about not needing a premises license. Left there for posterity though!

https://www.gov.uk/alcohol-duties
https://www.gov.uk/alcohol-licensing

 

[mixale]

Alex - have you downloaded the 226 notice from HMRC?
clicky

I still reckon if you DO NOT sell to the public you only need the HMRC registration to pay the duty

 

[ollyb]

Alex - have you downloaded the 226 notice from HMRC?
clicky

I still reckon if you DO NOT sell to the public you only need the HMRC registration to pay the duty

Sorry, didn't see your reply above when I added mine! I shall defer to your better judgement!

 

[Dronfieldbrewer]

I looked into setting up a brewery from home in the garage and eventually gave up...heres what I came up against:-

1) Planning...I was advised verbally by someone that I did not need change of use...but was a real grey area and if anyone were to object locally I would be in trouble.
2) Insurance...your buildings insurers will need to know that you are running a brewery from your house, if you do not tell them you will have a problem with claims etc...its not a given that they will allow it...I found that I needed to move the policy to another provider to get the cover.
3) Daft as it sounds, the water utilities need to know, one for supply as they will be supplying to a business and a house and effluent...you may be tipping some stuff down the drain that may be difficult to deal with.
4) to comply with food and hygiene you will need to keep the fermentation space seperate to the brewing and day to day areas...this can be done with a cupboard or similar, also the issue of ventilation will raise its head especialy if the inspector knows that dollops of C02 are released from fermentation.
5) Storage...if you have a 250 litre brewery 1.5Bbl. You will need quite a few casks..if you brew twice a week then that is 12 casks per week, be under no illusion that your casks will come back quickly, they do not...I have beer that I have sold to a pub and has taken 2 weeks to go on the bar let alone be finished and ready to pick back up..I brew once a month 16 casks per brew..I have a population of casks of 36 and need more, lots more. These take up a lot of space.
6) Storage..Malt..every brew will need a couple of sacks of malt...so if you brew twice a week you will need 4 sacks of malt at least per week..this needs to be off the floor really on a pallet or similar..hops need to be kept cool, yeast is a nightmare if you use liquid yeast and dont brew often....

Here is the biggy....If you do this you will, in effect, be living at a brewery. That was the stumbling block for me...I live with my wife and kids...even though my wife is supportive, if the odd niff of glorious fermentation was to permeate into the house (which I would find very pleasing but perhaps not for her)...it would only be a matter of time before she would have issues with it..

I thought that the best route for me was to form an alliance with a brewery...I rent space there, so do not need any of the above. I have my own fermenter at the brewery and use their equipment for a monthly fee....brilliant!!!

 

[farmer brown]

I think it is going to be a bit a of a long shot but I still feel I can make this work. We have 3 small cellars so the brewing room will be separate from the fermentation room and we then have 1 for conditioning so I'm not too worried about that. Its not going to make me a lot of money but its all about the next step for me, I guess Ill be just brewing twice a month so I hope to have enough storage for 4/5 bags of malt. I guess my main problem is the council and planning, Im not too worried about Health & Safety now.. But anything could happen to stop this from happening so Im not getting too excited yet

Ill keep you posted as I hope to find out about this 'change of use' or 'ancillary use' next week! This is going to make or break this from happening :pray:

Thanks again for all the advice