Hand Pull Beer Engine

[Buffers brewery]

See the thread I started in March 2019 titled 'Draught Beer'. I regret I have no more of the connecting kits left, and the pal who machined the brass part for me sadly died in his sleep several years ago.

Looking at your arrangement in the picture above @Coffin Dodger I assume there is no pressure relief valve? If that’s the case and you want to go down this route, I’d replace the S30 valve with a corny gas post (it might need a 1/4” BSP bulkhead fitting as the hole in the cap might be a bit too big for the post. A quick connect could then fitted to the tube coming out of the balloon using push-connection (JG) fittings. The balloon could be attached to the fermentation bucket lid using push-connect fittings to inflate the balloon with CO2.

 

[kelper]

In fact I can see no logical reason why a part used cask containing ONLY beer and carbon dioxide, shouldn’t keep for as long as all other un-tapped casks from the same gyle (brew).

Exactly. Beer is its own preservative if you keep air out.

 

[CD]

Looking at your arrangement in the picture above @Coffin Dodger I assume there is no pressure relief valve? If that’s the case and you want to go down this route, I’d replace the S30 valve with a corny gas post (it might need a 1/4” BSP bulkhead fitting as the hole in the cap might be a bit too big for the post. A quick connect could then fitted to the tube coming out of the balloon using push-connection (JG) fittings. The balloon could be attached to the fermentation bucket lid using push-connect fittings to inflate the balloon with CO2.

I just have one PB cap converted with the balloon attachment, and fit that to each PB in turn after I have vented all pressure from it. Then there is no need of a pressure relief valve, and I don’t suppose I use more than one S30 cylinder of gas a year for topping-up purposes.

By the way I don’t have a fermentation bucket, I have a girt great cylindriconical vessel which can hold 36 gallons,

 

[peebee]

Just out of interest, why? Both methods (low pressure CO2 and balloon) will maintain a CO2 atmosphere over the beer (I only use balloons for cold crashing).

It is why I coined the "perceived as flat" idea in my treatise (linked in my signature). It explained why I didn't get on with "breathers" and even why manufacturers of "breathers" would quote a time their product would extend the life of beer for (in one case only two days!). The physical difference is small (CO2 at atmospheric pressure will retain about 0.9 "volumes" of CO2 in the beer, 2PSI will retain about 1.1 "volumes") but the perception of "flat" will vary greatly amongst a population of "cask beer" drinkers. To keg beer drinkers all "cask beer" is flat!

Note, the residual CO2 in beer is determined by how long it is vented for. The aim isn't to vent all the CO2 condition out of the beer. In "Real Ale" air is allowed to dilute the CO2 over the beer as it is dispensed and so the CO2 could dip far lower than 0.9 "volumes", but it takes a few days.

 

[Buffers brewery]

I have a girt great cylindriconical vessel

There you go, boasting again

 

[peebee]

No point now, save it until next year.

Any other gadgets I need for a beer engine/corni set up?

Too late, the tree is cut and in the garden getting wet. It's coming into the house even if my aunts and uncles from (Tier 4!) Surrey can no longer come up to Wales with their 55 kids . Odd init, Wales's Christmas tightening of the rules seems rather tame now compared to what NI and now England have done. Just waiting for Scotland to trump us all and unilaterally declare independence and position all their tanks along the border?

You will need bits and bobs to connect your check valve (demand valve I presume?) and regulator to your keg, primary regulator and pump. I assembled something so I could release excess gas in the keg (so a 15PSI gauge is handy) but such niceties shouldn't stop you connecting up (the pump may groan if the keg has more than 5PSI in it (NOTE: the demand valve doesn't protect the pump from the keg pressure, only stops beer continually flowing though it - the demand valve is subject to hydraulic laws, i.e. wet, not gas pneumatics like the CO2 regulators).

 

[LeeH]

The check valve is the one you linked up in a different thread. I have a boat loads of misc fittings and a micromatic regulator.

How does the excess gas come about? From over force carbonating or from priming with sugar?

 

[peebee]

The check valve is the one you linked up in a different thread. I have a boat loads of misc fittings and a micromatic regulator.

How does the excess gas come about? From over force carbonating or from priming with sugar?

The RLBS valves? They have a 3/8" pushfit input and 1/2" hosetail to connect to pump (which are usually 1/2" hosetail connectors) so should be okay with that as-is. The regulator has 1/4" BSPP input and 3/8" BSPP output, both female. I generally put a 3/8" to 1/4" reducing bush in the 3/8" port just to make things easier (like >these<) then use 1/4" BSP to whatever-gas-piping-you-use adapters. The regulator can handle inputs of 1-16BAR which you'll manage easily.

Excess gas from over-priming (0.5 to 1.0g per litre is usually okay) or from kegging a bit early. "Force Carbonating"? That's not really in the spirit of hand-pumps! (Okay, so some of my beers get stuffed on hand-pump within three days of kegging, so might be "force carbonating" at 2PSI as the primings might not have acted fully by then). UK LPG regulators will not "relieve" (well they are designed for explosive gases!) so do not expect the regulator to vent excess gas.

 

[Clint]

I have followed this thread with great interest..I haven't got a beer pump and probably won't get one,but it's great seeing how people get these working.
My question...
How did they work in the pubs they were installed in?

 

[CD]

I have followed this thread with great interest..I haven't got a beer pump and probably won't get one,but it's great seeing how people get these working.
My question...
How did they work in the pubs they were installed in?

That’s a bit of a basic question isn’t it Clint. They, like, pump the beer from a cask in the cellar to your glass behind the bar!

 

[Clint]

Yes,CD it is! I asked as there seems to be a lot of fettling to get these things working again..is it lack of parts, understanding of how they work..?
When things catch my interest I like to know the very basics...I like drawings and diagrams..

 

[peebee]

I have followed this thread with great interest..I haven't got a beer pump and probably won't get one,but it's great seeing how people get these working.
My question...
How did they work in the pubs they were installed in?

They still use "demand valves", pubs don't use "real" check valves but probably (?) once did, when the valve's "cracking pressure" was so great they would work a bit like demand valves. The valves stop possibly spoilt beer in the pump running back into the cask (and, for demand valves, stop pressurised beer running out of the pump -- it's a sad truth that some breweries do put fizzy beer on hand-pumps these days, on purpose! The really galling thing is that some of these deceptive breweries call themselves "craft brewers").

Pubs obviously do not use LPG regulators. But some do use "breathers" -- like an LPG regulator but only puts out CO2 at zero PSI (PSIG to be perfectly correct). Because beer in a cask is all sold in a matter of days there is no need for CO2 pressure as the beer will hang onto enough dissolved CO2 for the duration.

Another trick I use is to seal the pump's nozzle and prevent beer in the pump going bad. Again, there is no need for such tricks in high turnover Pubs. A trick they may (should) use in a Pub is seal the casks with a "hard spile" so as to better retain some CO2 condition between sessions. Hard spiles (impermeable pegs) have no place if using a breather (or LPG regulator, or balloon!).

(EDIT: Sorry, no drawing and diagrams! But the "treatise" linked in my signature has a section on hand-pumps with diagrams.)

 

[Dads_Ale]

Yes,CD it is! I asked as there seems to be a lot of fettling to get these things working again..is it lack of parts, understanding of how they work..?
When things catch my interest I like to know the very basics...I like drawings and diagrams..

The problem is trying to adapt them to a home brew environment.
Firstly the keg/cask/corny/box could at the same height or higher than the hand pump, not many of us have cellars, therefore some sort of check valve is needed to stop the beer simply draining out via the hand pump.
We probably can't finish the whole lot in a couple of days so some way of stopping oxidization through letting air in, as a pub would do, is essential. This could be by cask breather or other low pressure gauges/balloon for Co2 supply.
The beer would go flat over time (I know everyone has a different perception of flat LoL) so a slight positive Co2 pressure would be an advantage here.

Sort the above and you can have a lovely pint of hand pulled bee just as you like it, which is what I am drinking now

 

[Clint]

So..these hand pumps are just that..like an old fashioned manual water pump relying on the self generated pressure. They are traditionally used for cask ales which held their own natural carbonation..which as said,can be considered "flat" by some.
Unlike more modern keg beer that is pushed under co2 pressure through a tap..unless they are used with fizzy beer to give the impression of cask/craft or whatever...

 

[Bill_g]

Interesting thread, and 'The Treatice' definitely worth a read, thanks.
I bought a dual cylinder hand pump a while ago & sometimes set it up for parties. As it's temporary I use a non return valve & a bit of positive pressure on the Corny.
For general use I've built a 3 Corny 'kegerator' from an old fridge. I initially had a lot of trouble with foam & would fully endorse what's said in The Treatice that seocndary regulation is essential as cheap regulators do not work properly at low pressures. My sub regulator is based around a gas solenoid, pressure detector & Arduino microcontroller. I set it up for around 8psi which I find is the right compromise. The beer keeps for a very long time the last pint often being the best one. (The beer taps on the kegorator are simple on/off beer taps not hand pumps).
This satisfies my needs but I can appreciate the disire to produce the perfect hand pumped pint. The problem (IMHO) for the home brewer not wishing to have too large an intake is that hand pumps are wasteful due to spoilage unless the throughput of beer is high, although some good work arounds offered in The Treatice.
I wish I'd read this thread a couple of years ago, but on the other hand I suppose I learnt a lot by working out what I needed to know for myself.

 

[CD]

My advice to anybody thinking of buying a beer engine, would be to steer clear of second-hand ones, and unless you expect to be serving dozens of pints a day, go for as small a cylinder as possible as it is sensible to ditch the first 2 or 3 ‘pulls’ each new day to clear the beer that has been sitting in the pump cylinder and piping overnight. I used a quarter-size version (4 pulls per pint) in conjunction with a cask breather for eight years – from 1987 to 1994 – and reckoned on average I would ditch the best part of a pint for every two I drank!

They all basically consist of a cylinder, piston, and two one-way valves, an inlet valve where the inlet pipe connects to the cylinder, and an outlet valve - frequently on the piston itself which lets beer flow past it on the return stroke. The numerous seals, washers, and ‘O’ rings can wear and start leaking, as is often evident by the repeated pulls some poor bartenders have to make to fill each pint glass.

 

[CD]

They still use "demand valves", pubs don't use "real" check valves but probably (?) once did, when the valve's "cracking pressure" was so great they would work a bit like demand valves. The valves stop possibly spoilt beer in the pump running back into the cask (and, for demand valves, stop pressurised beer running out of

Peebee confuses me slightly over his use of the terms ‘demand valve’ and ‘cask breather’. My understanding is that they are both identical in operation, the former supplying air to a Scuba diver’s mouth when he sucks, the latter supplying CO2 to replenish the volume of beer drawn by handpump from a cask of beer when it sucks.

Both work by a diaphragm moved by the slight fall in pressure caused by the suck which opens a valve admitting gas supplied via a low pressure regulator, and incorporate an outlet valve to expel air as the diver exhales, or CO2 if the cask of beer is still fermenting slightly.

Incidentally, casks connected to a breather are usually very slightly (2” or 3” WG) under atmospheric pressure, never above.

 

[emerson909]

My advice to anybody thinking of buying a beer engine, would be to steer clear of second-hand ones, and unless you expect to be serving dozens of pints a day, go for as small a cylinder as possible as it is sensible to ditch the first 2 or 3 ‘pulls’ each new day to clear the beer that has been sitting in the pump cylinder and piping overnight. I used a quarter-size version (4 pulls per pint) in conjunction with a cask breather for eight years – from 1987 to 1994 – and reckoned on average I would ditch the best part of a pint for every two I drank!

They all basically consist of a cylinder, piston, and two one-way valves, an inlet valve where the inlet pipe connects to the cylinder, and an outlet valve - frequently on the piston itself which lets beer flow past it on the return stroke. The numerous seals, washers, and ‘O’ rings can wear and start leaking, as is often evident by the repeated pulls some poor bartenders have to make to fill each pint glass.

not to start an argument but I’ve picked up two second hand beer engines and they are superb. Both needed a bit of tlc but they are so simple and parts are readily available if needed. I have set up per @peebee excellent advice and the beer runs out way before any loss in quality. Both are quarter pint pulls and I just ditch the first pull on each session.

 

[CD]

I just ditch the first pull on each session.

Maybe its me being over cautious.

 

[peebee]

Peebee confuses me slightly over his use of the terms ‘demand valve’ and ‘cask breather’. My understanding is that they are both identical in operation, the former supplying air to a Scuba diver’s mouth when he sucks, the latter supplying CO2 to replenish the volume of beer drawn by handpump from a cask of beer when it sucks.

Both work by a diaphragm moved by the slight fall in pressure caused by the suck which opens a valve admitting gas supplied via a low pressure regulator, and incorporate an outlet valve to expel air as the diver exhales, or CO2 if the cask of beer is still fermenting slightly.

Incidentally, casks connected to a breather are usually very slightly (2” or 3” WG) under atmospheric pressure, never above.

Ah, in this case there is a BIG difference (unlike the "aspirator" and "breather" we have discussed). The "breather" is dry, controlling CO2 into the cask/keg/whatever. The demand valve is "wet", controlling the flow of beer into the pump, hence I do at times point out that the demand valve is subject to hydraulic laws and does not protect the pump from pressure (trying to pump highly pressurised beer will result in vibrations, creaks and water hammer).