Free Scotland

[Brew_DD2]

The UKs nuclear subs are based in Scotland. If Scotland broke off there would be a serious issue where to base them as there no where else in the UK that's suitable.

That and the shortbread

I think shortbread falls under 'natural resources" along with haggis.

 

[Brewnaldo]

No one has ever said it was a legal position for the umpteenth time. It was stated that if they lost they wont be coming back for another crack for a generation. They have now been held to that statement.

Well if its not a legal position, it can safely be filed in the bin beside every shred of integrity, and numerous actual legal positions reneged on, of the current tory party, and move on with discussing what it's going to take for the repeated democratic will of the Scottish people to be respected.

 

[Brew_DD2]

It was stated that if they lost they wont be coming back for another crack for a generation.

Even if you accept that was the context of the comment, that is not a politician's decision to make. That Supreme Court ruling goes further and says legally, that they are unable to offer a vote full stop, never mind within certain time periods.

 

[foxy]

Well if its not a legal position, it can safely be filed in the bin beside every shred of integrity, and numerous actual legal positions reneged on, of the current tory party, and move on with discussing what it's going to take for the repeated democratic will of the Scottish people to be respected.

No one is disrespecting the will of the Scottish people you will get a vote in due time.

Even if you accept that was the context of the comment, that is not a politician's decision to make.

But a politician can decide to have a referendum? Maybe Sturgeon should hold a referendum on whether they need another referendum to break away from the Union. That is if there isn't more pressing matters which needs addressing. Like the economy.

 

[An Ankoù]

The UKs nuclear subs are based in Scotland. If Scotland broke off there would be a serious issue where to base them as there no where else in the UK that's suitable.

That and the shortbread

And therein lies the rub. We have got so used to post-Brexit, isolationist Britain that we are thinking that that's the only way. But Britain is weird! An independent Scotland doesn't need to cut off trade, close it's borders to movement of peoples, etc, etc. Things could carry on much as normal except that, with a customs union with Europe there would nbeed to be border checks on movement of goods. Scotland and the DK (Disunited Kingdom) could have treaties allowing the DK to continue to pen its subs in Scotland. They could have treaties, a bit like a small NATO, that in the case of aggression or urgent need, all would come to the aid of each other, etc, etc. Isolationism isn't the same as independence.
I'm inclined to have a look at how the countries of Scandinavia get on with each other as model.
Edit:
This looks interesting. Scotland might even consider joining here while waiting for EU membership.
https://www.norden.org/en/freedom-movement

 

[An Ankoù]

No one is disrespecting the will of the Scottish people you will get a vote in due time.

One argument (one that I subscribe to) is that it's for Scotland to decide when that time is due and not another jurisdiction. It's also for Scotland to decide on the frequency of such soundings.
And that is the question addressed in this thread.

 

[Bosch]

O could be wrong, but I thing The SNP said they would get rid of the nukes in Scotland.

Probably detonate them all in some desolate wasteland.
Sunderland perhaps?
Or Cavan?

 

[Brew_DD2]

Maybe Sturgeon should hold a referendum on whether they need another referendum to break away from the Union.

She has, through the various elections she and her party have won since 2014.

 

[Stan's Brew]

All this talk of isolationist Britian - Britian operates within a globalist technocratic paradigm
All this talk of independent Scotland - Scotland operates within a globalist technocratic paradigm
All this talk of breaking up the Union - the Union operates within a globalist technocratic paradigm

Maybe we should be negotiating independence from the globalist technocratic paradigm rather than squabbling amongst ourselves over centuries old borders. Of course the elitist globalists love to see us squabbling amongst ourselves, it keeps us off their backs and distracts us from examining what they are up to, when people wake up to their evil plans it will be too late for referendums.

 

[An Ankoù]

All this talk of isolationist Britian - Britian operates within a globalist technocratic paradigm

Britain operates as an isolationist within this paradigm and within all the other constructs which seek to describe mankind's occupancy of this planet. But no single paradigm or the sum of all of them defines or circumscribes any one of us.

Right. Enough of this banter. I'm off to use up 5 varieties of NZ hops, open packs in the freezer, by emulating CML's Tropical England. I think it's going to be a monster.

 

[Stan's Brew]

Britain operates as an isolationist within this paradigm and within all the other structures which describe mankind's occupancy of this planet. But no single paradigm or the sum of all of them defines or circumscribes any one of us.

And by leaving the Union, does that not mean that Scotland becomes isolationist by definition?

 

[Stan's Brew]

But then drawing upon the Wikipedia definition of isolationist - I would say we have been involved in foreign wars since the dawn of time, the term therefore is being misused here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isolationism

 

[An Ankoù]

But then drawing upon the Wikipedia definition of isolationist - I would say we have been involved in foreign wars since the dawn of time, the term therefore is being misused here.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isolationism

Fair comment, but we're not talking about the dawn of time. There wasn't a Britain or a UK at the dawn of time. I'm talking about the Brexit Event and rule by the ERG.
I agree that our intervention in Ukraine goes against the principle, but trade and influence are certainly there. I wish I could say that our contribution to Ukraine's defence was altruistic and moral, but with our current lot, I'm not at all sure.

 

[pilgrimhudd]

One of the comments defending Brexit that I noticed was that Britain was reaching out globally rather than restricting herself to the EU. Personally thought that was bollocks and felt that Britain should have been more proactive in making the Commonwealth more of a 'thing', increased trade, focused development aid, shared science and education links etc within the EU.

 

[Agentgonzo]

One of the comments defending Brexit that I noticed was that Britain was reaching out globally rather than restricting herself to the EU

Which (as the front page of the observer) has once again been proved to be a lie.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/nov/26/brexit-britain-japan-trade-deal-exports-slump

 

[pilgrimhudd]

Which (as the front page of the observer) has once again been proved to be a lie.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/nov/26/brexit-britain-japan-trade-deal-exports-slump

Course it is, like all of it.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

It's gratifying to see that, by and large, the thread has stayed on track in spite of your efforts to derail it. The question is about the status of Scotland: country, region, or province, and whether it should have the right to self determination.
A discussion of the advantages and disadvantages of independence belongs elsewhere. Start a new thread by all means. It could be fun.

Pot calling kettle!

He's a GB fetishist. Get misty-eyed over warm beer and all things British.

An Ankou -
Warm beer, in a pewter, mug, wearing a flat cap, at a table near the fire at the Local, while listening to Noddy Holder regaling us with his favourite Christmas Carol, dog under the table, and lubricating the old vocal cordage in anticipation of a jolly old sing along to "My Old Man Said Foller the Baand" belted out on the old joanna later Ron, chips and a packet of woodbines on the way home, and a crafty pee against the newsagent's front door.

 

[Druncan]

All this talk about the UK as it operates in a football focused technocratic paradigm where English and Welsh supporters show their affinity by kicking the *hit out of each other,,

But I still find the whole concept of Paradigm isn't really relevant to our world or is it?
"Paradigm is a surreal adventure game set in the strange and post apocalyptic Eastern European country of Krusz. Play as the handsome mutant" (Steam 2017) ,,,

Goes back to re-building and re-stocking the cold war bunker (Ex Pat Geordie that voted leave)

 

[Stan's Brew]

All this talk about the UK as it operates in a football focused technocratic paradigm where English and Welsh supporters show their affinity by kicking the *hit out of each other,,

But I still find the whole concept of Paradigm isn't really relevant to our world or is it?
"Paradigm is a surreal adventure game set in the strange and post apocalyptic Eastern European country of Krusz. Play as the handsome mutant" (Steam 2017) ,,,

Goes back to re-building and re-stocking the cold war bunker (Ex Pat Geordie that voted leave)

OK without going completely OT a google throws up lots of reading material for those interested. I'm sure everyone will have a keen interest and retrospective understanding of what it means and the effects of a globalist technocratic paradigm over the coming years as the biosecurity control grid slowly seeps into our lives and you find yourself controlled by the red/amber/green on your mobile phone - "They Live"

https://presearch.com/search?q=globalist+technocratic+paradigm

 

[Stan's Brew]

One thing about the SNP has always puzzled me and no-one has ever provided a straight answer to it. The SNP are social nationalists, social nationalists were shortened to NAZI not so long ago:

People don't associate social nationalism with NAZIsm - why not?
Social Nationalists are nationalists, to me that also equates to the right wing slur of populist (or isolationist - possibly incorrectly)?
Looking at it from a left/right political point of view where fascists/nationalists/NAZIs are pretty much the same authoritarian breed but on apparently opposite ends of the spectrum, does that mean social nationalism = fascism = NAZI?

Does any of this apply to the SNP? And if not, why not?