Flaked, Torrified and Malted

[Ricardoslayer]

Hi, please can anyone explain the differences and the usages between Malted, Flaked and Torrified wheat.
I am mainly into brewing IPAs and NEIPAs etc but would also like to have a go and a Witbier .
I'm looking to buy some grain in bulk (around 25kg of base malt) and and some adjuncts. I assume i need malted wheat to make witbier but would flaked or torrified wheat be better in a IPA?
Thanks in advance for any help.
Rich

 

[Cheshire Cat]

Hi Rich
For a wheat beer you use malted wheat up to 50% typically, for an IPA use Torrefied or Malted at 5% and I've never used flaked wheat but would guess you could use it on a NEIPA to maybe 10%.

 

[Ricardoslayer]

Hi Rich
For a wheat beer you use malted wheat up to 50% typically, for an IPA use Torrefied or Malted at 5% and I've never used flaked wheat but would guess you could use it on a NEIPA to maybe 10%.

Ok Thank you. Would you say there are any advantages to torrefied over malted. Is there any point in buying torrefied if i end up buying 10kg of malted to do some wheat beers?

 

[Cheshire Cat]

I used Torrefied for British bitters for head retention but I believe malted will do the same.

 

[JonBrew]

For a Belgian Witbier you should use flaked wheat or another 'raw' form of wheat. If you use malted wheat it will give a different body/mouthfeel and wont be quite right for the style.

For a German wheat beer, such as Weissbier or Hefeweizen, you would use the malted wheat, rather than flaked wheat.

Good article on different forms of brewing wheat here Brewing with Wheat - Brew Your Own

 

[Cheshire Cat]

Not according to the bible it says wheat malt at 50%.

 

[terrym]

Torrified and flaked wheats have no diastatic power so have to be mashed with a grain that does have it to convert the starches e.g wheat malt or barley malt.

 

[JonBrew]

Not according to the bible it says wheat malt at 50%.

Most other recipes call for unmalted wheat. The following is from the bjcp:

Ingredients
About 50% unmalted wheat and 50% pale barley malt (usually Pils malt) constitute the grist. In some versions, up to 5-10% raw oats may be used.

I'm sure using malted wheat would make a fine beer but i think it would lack the creamyness that unmalted wheat would bring. Unmalted wheat also provides a better protein haze.

 

[AdeDunn]

Bible has it wrong. I've done wheat beers both ways, the one that was genuinely a Belgian wit was the one using flaked wheat and a stepped mash schedule, documenting in this thread Ade's Self Build Boiler Brew Days - AG BIAB #12 from post number 10 onwards to 15. Some malted wheat in there to be sure, but 700g compared to 2 kilos of flaked wheat.... Bible probably went with malt for an easier brew day, avoiding the risk of needing a stepped mash to avoid the blue you can end up with else. As JonBrew says, it produced a lovely creamy wit, much better than the likes of Hoegaarden. The time I tried with malted wheat, the beer produced was thin and had no haze at all (could be partly because I ended up using the wrong yeast... lol, which made it taste of banana too.... lol).

I use malted wheat a fair bit though, it's good in so called "golden ales", basically summery pale ales brewed with new world hops. Just a little, adds a little crispness. I've used torrefied to aid head retention a few times, but to be honest something like carapils (or other dextrine malt) is more effective in this job.

 

[RGeats]

For a Belgian Witbier you should use flaked wheat or another 'raw' form of wheat. If you use malted wheat it will give a different body/mouthfeel and wont be quite right for the style.

For a German wheat beer, such as Weissbier or Hefeweizen, you would use the malted wheat, rather than flaked wheat.

Good article on different forms of brewing wheat here Brewing with Wheat - Brew Your Own

Just reading this article, interesting to read the below:

Wheat Flour
While its use is virtually unheard of in the US, wheat flour has been an acceptable brewing addition in the UK. Soft wheat flour, with its relatively lower protein, is preferred (homebrewers might try cake flour). In order not to interfere with good lautering, it should be well mixed with the crushed malt. At preparations of about 10 percent of the grist, it is an inexpensive method of enhancing head retention in British-style ales.

Does this mean you can use plain flour? How would you substitute this into a recipe?

 

[Cheshire Cat]

Give Ricardo a chance guys the bible is sacrosanct keep it simple.

 

[Ricardoslayer]

For a Belgian Witbier you should use flaked wheat or another 'raw' form of wheat. If you use malted wheat it will give a different body/mouthfeel and wont be quite right for the style.

For a German wheat beer, such as Weissbier or Hefeweizen, you would use the malted wheat, rather than flaked wheat.

Good article on different forms of brewing wheat here Brewing with Wheat - Brew Your Own

Cheers Jon.
Good article.

 

[BeerCat]

Torrified and flaked wheats have no diastatic power so have to be mashed with a grain that does have it to convert the starches e.g wheat malt or barley malt.

Aren't they are also more fermentable than malted grains? I think rice is but unsure.

 

[MickDundee]

Aren't they are also more fermentable than malted grains? I think rice is but unsure.

My highest efficiency to date was my witbier so it sounds reasonable.

 

[MickDundee]

Give Ricardo a chance guys the bible is sacrosanct keep it simple.

It’s not complicated to switch out malted wheat for unmalted, and it will result in a beer much more like the one he is hoping to make.

 

[Ricardoslayer]

Just reading this article, interesting to read the below:

Wheat Flour
While its use is virtually unheard of in the US, wheat flour has been an acceptable brewing addition in the UK. Soft wheat flour, with its relatively lower protein, is preferred (homebrewers might try cake flour). In order not to interfere with good lautering, it should be well mixed with the crushed malt. At preparations of about 10 percent of the grist, it is an inexpensive method of enhancing head retention in British-style ales.

Does this mean you can use plain flour? How would you substitute this into a recipe?

I've never heard of that. You'd think it would very gloopy though.

 

[AdeDunn]

Give Ricardo a chance guys the bible is sacrosanct keep it simple.

lol That has to be a joke right? You don't really think that 1 book is that important right?

There are lots of good books, and they're best read in multiples, taking some from this one, some from that one, then doing a bit of online research too. That's how I came up with my Belgian Wit recipe and mash schedule, and it was lush. Far more fun that way too.

If you're not ready for stepped mashing, you could try doing it with a basic BIAB method, as you won't be troubled by a stuck sparge or anything that way. Flavour may be a little different though, as will efficiency. Or, you could go the route of a more German wheat beer and just use wheat malt and pilsner malt, with a German wheat yeast, and not worry about flaked wheat at all. Totally different flavour and texture, but if you like it still delicious and good for something ready fairly quickly and good for a nice refreshing beer on a hot day.

 

[RGeats]

I've never heard of that. You'd think it would very gloopy though.

That's what I thought, anyone fancy giving it a go?

 

[RoomWithABrew]

Opening up an old thread here.
I'm going to make a Thomas Hardy ale clone as per
https://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2013/03/lets-brew-wednesday-eldridge-pope-1967.htmlMy workings say I need 1.25 kg of flaked wheat and only have 1.0kg.
But in the details it says that Eldridge pope actually used flour so I could just add some plain flour ( not strong bakers flour ) to make up the last 250g.
Or should I use some Torrified wheat that I also have on the shelf for the last 250g?
As I understand it the torrified wheat is high temp gelatinised to " pop it " and the flaked wheat is steam heated and then rolled so that also is gelatinised.
I think I'd only need to gelatinise the flour by raising to 85C for a while before adding it to the mash. No problem for me to cook up a porridge on the morning of the brewday, which I plan on the 23rd.

 

[foxy]

Opening up an old thread here.
I'm going to make a Thomas Hardy ale clone as per
https://barclayperkins.blogspot.com/2013/03/lets-brew-wednesday-eldridge-pope-1967.htmlMy workings say I need 1.25 kg of flaked wheat and only have 1.0kg.
But in the details it says that Eldridge pope actually used flour so I could just add some plain flour ( not strong bakers flour ) to make up the last 250g.
Or should I use some Torrified wheat that I also have on the shelf for the last 250g?
As I understand it the torrified wheat is high temp gelatinised to " pop it " and the flaked wheat is steam heated and then rolled so that also is gelatinised.
I think I'd only need to gelatinise the flour by raising to 85C for a while before adding it to the mash. No problem for me to cook up a porridge on the morning of the brewday, which I plan on the 23rd.

Don't fret, adjust your recipe for the flaked wheat you have on hand. In the past brewers used flaked, malted or torrified for head retention. One of Charlie Bamforths podcasts on Beer Smith he explains it. I believe he also said you don't need a lot otherwise you will run into clarity problems