First time water treatment...

[Budgie]

Right, having spend a few weeks reading up on this stuff I'm almost convinced that I (at least partially) understand it.

I'm going to brew a pale ale today using ASDA Eden Falls water.
The values for the water are (mg/L)
Ca - 11
Mg - 3
SO4 - 9
Na - 9
CL - 12
HCO3 - 30

According to the water calculator on here I need the following additions:
3.8g Gypsum in the mash then 11.5g gypsum, 1.6g table salt, and 5.1g Epsom salts to other boil.

Apologies if this is a stupid post, but does that sound about right to you knowledgeable lot? Or have I totally missed/misunderstood anything?

Cheers. :thumb:

 

[strange-steve]

It seems a little much to me, but I like to keep it as simple as possible. The table salt and epsom salts are not necessary at all, you shouldn't ever have to add magnesium or sodium to your brewing water (unless brewing a gose of course).
The only thing you'll need to add to Ashbeck for a pale ale is some gypsum, to raise the calcium and to add sulphate. Around 0.4g/L added to the mash and the sparge water would be perfect.

 

[Budgie]

Thanks for the input. I've gone with your advice and just added gypsum at 0.4g/L.

Out of curiosity, what would be the thinking behind salt and magnesium additions as per the HBF calculator?

 

[strange-steve]

Good question, and tbh I don't know. Some calculators try to match specific water profiles which isn't really the ideal way to approach water treatment. Magnesium is a flavour enhancer and yeast nutrient but the mash adds more than enough to render additions unnecessary. Sodium is also a flavour enhancer but it can taste a little harsh so it's better to keep it fairly low. It's also not very good for yeast which is why gose brewers generally add it after fermentation.

 

[DoctorMick]

It seems a little much to me, but I like to keep it as simple as possible. The table salt and epsom salts are not necessary at all, you shouldn't ever have to add magnesium or sodium to your brewing water (unless brewing a gose of course).
The only thing you'll need to add to Ashbeck for a pale ale is some gypsum, to raise the calcium and to add sulphate. Around 0.4g/L added to the mash and the sparge water would be perfect.

Murphy & Sons suggested I add salt to my water for brewing stouts, not a lot mind. I haven't tried it yet tho.

 

[Personal91]

This is all a little to advanced for me at the moment -maybe affect me once i'm brewing from grain

 

[Simonh82]

Could salt be used as a source of chloride? Maybe it is suggested instead of calcium chloride.

 

[Budgie]

Could salt be used as a source of chloride? Maybe it is suggested instead of calcium chloride.

You might be right there. This water chemistry lark is enough to drive a man to drink!

 

[DoctorMick]

Could salt be used as a source of chloride? Maybe it is suggested instead of calcium chloride.

Yep, that'd what my water reports says. It also suggests adding calcium chloride but if any more was added it would exceed the range for calcium.

 

[strange-steve]

Yep, that'd what my water reports says. It also suggests adding calcium chloride but if any more was added it would exceed the range for calcium.

I don't get that
I don't know why you would have to increase the chloride by so much that the calcium level was too high.

 

[DoctorMick]

I don't get that
I don't know why you would have to increase the chloride by so much that the calcium level was too high.

I've got to be honest, I don't really understand the water report yet. :whistle: I'll whack a snippet of my report up when I'm home tonight.

 

[Simonh82]

The Murphy and Sons water reports seem to set a limit of 200ppm for calcium. I guess they think that anything more than that will be detrimental to beer flavour.

Personally I've never found this. When I've been targeting a Burton like water profile building on a basis of London water I've got to nearly 300ppm calcium and not noticed anything unpleasant about it.

I have a water report from them but I just ignore the bit about adding salt.

 

[Budgie]

I've been trawling through John Palmers water treatment section this morning.

Regarding sodium additions he says

"At levels of 70 - 150 ppm it rounds out the beer flavors, accentuating the sweetness of the malt. But above 200ppm the beer will start to taste salty. The combination of sodium with a high concentration of sulfate ions will generate a very harsh bitterness. Therefore keep at least one or the other as low as possible, preferably the sodium."

That sounds like a reason to avoid salt to me!

 

[DoctorMick]

I've been trawling through John Palmers water treatment section this morning.

Regarding sodium additions he says

"At levels of 70 - 150 ppm it rounds out the beer flavors, accentuating the sweetness of the malt. But above 200ppm the beer will start to taste salty. The combination of sodium with a high concentration of sulfate ions will generate a very harsh bitterness. Therefore keep at least one or the other as low as possible, preferably the sodium."

That sounds like a reason to avoid salt to me!

Strange, my water report suggests a chloride level between 250 and 350 for darker beers.

 

[strange-steve]

I wouldn't do any more than 150ppm personally. Anything over 250ppm and you're getting into gose levels of sodium.
I don't have any first hand experience with Murphy's but I've been informed by some very knowledgeable and well respected brewers that their reports should not be taken as gospel.

 

[Budgie]

I don't have any first hand experience with Murphy's but I've been informed by some very knowledgeable and well respected brewers that their reports should not be taken as gospel.

The same is to be said of my research :lol:

 

[DoctorMick]

I wouldn't do any more than 150ppm personally. Anything over 250ppm and you're getting into gose levels of sodium.
I don't have any first hand experience with Murphy's but I've been informed by some very knowledgeable and well respected brewers that their reports should not be taken as gospel.

Do you mean their analysis of the water sample shouldn't be trusted or their advice on how to treat the water?

 

[strange-steve]

Do you mean their analysis of the water sample shouldn't be trusted or their advice on how to treat the water?

I think both, but as I said I've never used them. I've seen lots of people complaining about them on JBK and the Craft brew forum.

 

[DoctorMick]

I think both, but as I said I've never used them. I've seen lots of people complaining about them on JBK and the Craft brew forum.

So, after a bit (well, a lot) of reading, it seems the recommendations provided by Murphy's conflict with the limits on calcium, chloride and sulphate that I've found in numerous different places. Interestingly, the figures they provide do allow them to recommend their products tho which, if they used the other figures widely published, they wouldn't be able to do otherwise. Shame I've just bought a load of DWB!

CRS/AMS and calcium chloride still looks like a worthwhile investment tho, the only issue I'm having is that my water is already fairly high in calcium so I exceed the recommended limits in every calculator going once I start adding gypsum or calcium chloride and if I use epsom salts I exceed the magnesium limits. Is the best way to reduce calcium and magnesium to use distilled/RO water alongside my tap water?

 

[trueblue]

I've been trawling through John Palmers water treatment section this morning.

Regarding sodium additions he says

"At levels of 70 - 150 ppm it rounds out the beer flavors, accentuating the sweetness of the malt. But above 200ppm the beer will start to taste salty. The combination of sodium with a high concentration of sulfate ions will generate a very harsh bitterness. Therefore keep at least one or the other as low as possible, preferably the sodium."

That sounds like a reason to avoid salt to me!

Palmer is American and for some reason the Americans seem to have different parameters than us, especially concerning British beers :whistle:

Just get the PH level right, a good calcium level, at least 200, then the right suphate:chloride ratio. The problem with Murphy's is they are trying to sell their products. If you want a reliable unbiased report contact wallybrew at Phoenix analytical.