First BIAB Should I Make A 5 Gallon or 10 Gallon Batch?

[merrydown]

BACKGROUND
I have a 55 litre Stainless Electric Boiler - single element that I plan to use for BIAB. I bought large because I wanted to be able to make batches big enough to mature and share without running out. I can add a second element in the future if the single element really does my head in.

I made a nice, tight fitting insulation suit for it 5 layers of insulation material made into a decent jacket that seems to help the boiler hold temperature extremely well :)

I have test boiled - water only - three times to perfect seal and double check. I also used the opportunity to calibrate the sight glass and measure estimated boiling times.

I have brewed a dozen kits over the last 3 years, but haven't tried BIAB yet, though it seems straightforward enough. (!)


QUESTION
I am planning to make a 10 Gallon batch of IPA.

I pretty much know that I should try a 5 gallon batch first, so that if I wreck the batch, I've wasted less money. Am I right to be that cautious or should I expect a similar or more straightforward result with a 10 Gallon Batch?


REASON FOR ASKING

• I don't have a lot of dosh at the moment and it would be a shame to waste what I have, should it go wrong.
• I haven't any sort of internal disc to restrict headroom in the boiler and the thermometer, outlet etc are all positioned more optionally for 10Gallon batches than 5 - it seems.
  
• I have to go to 10 Gallon some time, is first try too soon?
• The BIAB technique doesn't seem so difficult.
• I really fancy going the whole hog.

Any advice gratefully received. I don't really mind doing a 5 Gallon batch first, if a 10 gallon batch would be very foolhardy, though I would like to go large straight away :)


Jim

 

[IainM]

I'd do 5 gallon first. Have you got a winch system for lifting out the grain bag? If not, then you'd better be ripped or really into weak beer, because the grist of a standard 10L batch plus all the water it absorbs is going to be heavy.

 

[merrydown]

Thanks Iain,

I know you are right. Damnit it's so obviously sensible. I just want to run before I can walk.

I am pretty strong, but I am expecting it to be a bit of a haul removing the bag! I am having some work done on the room above my garage, so I will get them to put some substantial wood in so I can fit my winch system at that point. It's waiting in the packet. I suppose I could build a frame to make it a safer lift in the meantime.

 

[DavidDetroit]

When someone says "five gallons" for BIAB, is that amount left over that goes in the fermenter?

 

[merrydown]

It's a good point. When I say a 5 or 10 Gallon Batch, I intend 5 or 10 Gallons in the fermenter.

 

[IainM]

Again, I'd stick with 5 gallons, especially if this is your first BIAB. I'm also pretty strong, but I've struggled with 5 gallon high gravity BIAB brews. That first BIAB is where you know the least, learn the most, and have the greatest ability to screw up. It's diminishing returns from there, so do a smaller trial run to get your head around the process first. Either way, let us know how you get on.

 

[merrydown]

Yep I am convinced. I am completely new to BIAB, watching videos isn't doing, I knew really I shouldn't try from the off.

I will be back with stories from the edge!

Cheers :)

 

[Leon103]

I would go 10l. Why would you ruin it? You got to make one at some time. Also how long did it take to boil 10 gallons of water

 

[dan125]

I don;t think you'll be able to make a 10g batch without topping up as you go, which will make your volume calcs more difficult.
My 50L pot is pretty much maxed out to make 28L BIAB batches. It wouldn't fit at all if I did true BIAB without a sparge.

 

[merrydown]

Leon, a long time :)

These were the measurements I took.

0 minutes 15C
70 minutes 64C
100 minutes 83C
115 minutes 90C
132 minutes 100C

I didn't expect that Dan, I thought I'd be safe...

 

[Leon103]

Leon, a long time :)

These were the measurements I took.

0 minutes 15C
70 minutes 64C
100 minutes 83C
115 minutes 90C
132 minutes 100C

I didn't expect that Dan, I thought I'd be safe...

You may want to add a second element before doing a full batch. Make sure your electrics can handle it first

 

[dan125]

I didn't expect that Dan, I thought I'd be safe...

Sorry for being a killjoy, and every set-up is different, so you might do better than me.
But allowing for grain absorption, boil off and hop/trub/deadspace losses, and to end up with 28L in the FV I need to start with 44-45ish Litres of water depending on the recipe.
This means I need to take some water out after water treatment (used for sparging after heating to around 75C) to make space for the grains.

I'd suggest starting with a 5g batch and see how your volumes work out.

 

[merrydown]

Thanks for the advice.

Leon, what would you say are passable target times? I can run two kettle leads from the kitchen ring without a problem. I bought the heater with one element pre-drilled, I can buy another in time, I had expected to.

Yes Dan, I had only researched the concept rather than all the details so far. I hadn't taken account of absorption, losses and evaporation or figured out how much boil headspace I would have and how much malt and other additions I would need.

No problem, of course I can adapt to whatever safe maximum I can make. I will read up some more and do some calculations.

If I can achieve a 6-7 gallon batch, that'd still be great and will probablky be the range I first test at :)

I only think in terms of 5 /10 gallon batches because I am used to brewing that amount. Thanks again for bringing reality into play before I made assumptions into actions

 

[Leon103]

Thanks for the advice.

Leon, what would you say are passable target times? I can run two kettle leads from the kitchen ring without a problem. I bought the heater with one element pre-drilled, I can buy another in time, I had expected to.

Yes Dan, I had only researched the concept rather than all the details so far. I hadn't taken account of absorption, losses and evaporation or figured out how much boil headspace I would have and how much malt and other additions I would need.

No problem, of course I can adapt to whatever safe maximum I can make. I will read up some more and do some calculations.

If I can achieve a 6-7 gallon batch, that'd still be great and will probablky be the range I first test at :)

I only think in terms of 5 /10 gallon batches because I am used to brewing that amount. Thanks again for bringing reality into play before I made assumptions into actions

Depends on how much time you have got on your hands. Your brew day will be very long if you were doing s large batch with only one element. Some may not mind this but I would

 

[merrydown]

I suppose I will be even more pleased once I get two elements. Brew days are rare for me though, so I guess a little more wait the first time won't twist my melon toooo much.

:)

 

[merrydown]

I just had a thought about this. Were I in future to try a 10 gallon batch in my 56l boiler...

Is there any reason I couldn't perform the mashing with 2 bags containing malt enough for a 10 gallon batch and add as much water initially as is safe, heating some extra water outside the boiler (I have a clean 35L casserole pan).

This would allow me to remove the remaining solids / grist in two manageable pulls - until I get my hoist sorted. Then I could sparge/rinse with the top up water to take the brew to the required volume.

Am I missing a point here, or is that how some people do it?

Cheers

 

[Oneiroi]

I'm sure that could work, although you'll probably want to find a way to set up the bags so that water can move fairly freely in and out of them. I'd imagine if you bunched them at the top and hung them it might squeeze/compact the grain a bit and hurt your efficiency?

Whatever you chose to do, make sure to make lots of notes on your process so you can figure out what worked well and what didn't!

 

[IainM]

How would dough in work? Would you start by putting the opening of the first bag around the rim of the boiler, dough in, then tie the neck of the bag so that the grain doesn't come out and put the second bag on top of it and do the same? The first bag would have to be large, otherwise the weight of the grain half way through doughing in will pull it down and off the rim of the boiler. Alternatively, you could finish doughing in the first bag then secure the drawstring somewhere outside of the boiler to stop it dropping in entirely and spilling grain out, but then how would you stretch the rim of the second bag over the rim of the boiler to dough in the second batch? Will you be stirring the mash halfway through, or every 20 mins, or not at all? This will affect your efficiency and could be less practical with two bags, especially if one is sitting tied up under the other. Also, how will you sparge? You'll have to if you want to BIAB a 45L batch in a 56L boiler. Will you do two batch sparges in another fv, one with each bag? How will you ensure that the mash temperature is evenly spread between the two bags? You heat to a strike temperature of, say 70C, and dough in the first lot and end up with the water and the first lot below strike temp but higher than target temp. You then tie it off and dough in the second bag, then the water and the second lot of grain end up lower than target temperature because the first bag is tied off and no longer getting mixed and equilibrating with the rest of the grist.

 

[merrydown]

Thank you so much Oneiroi and IainM for raising these excellent questions. I am lucky to have you raise these points to help me solve some of the problems of my green naievity. You have already fleshed out my understanding substantially before I get going.

I am most likely going to do a 5 or 6 Gallon first, so I shouldn't encounter the issues you highlight yet, but all the objections are invaluable. I might never try to do a larger one, I just wondered if my ideas were sound and it is good to know why they probably are not :)

In my head, tying the bags off to the handles on each side of the boiler would work, but you are right, that would restrict circulation and mean that I couldn't stir properly.

A better solution - were I to approach it this way, would be to nest the bags with my very large and *allegedly* well made bag in first - over the rim and the second bag inside this after - also secured over the rim. This would still mean that circulation would be less efficient, but I think it might be manageable. I'd have to unsecure the upper bag to stir the second and probably still wouldn't have enough circulation to make it worthwhile, but maybe worth a try at some point.

Sparging, I'd anticipated putting both bags on the heavy duty stainless trivet I have and sparging at the same time, though thinking about your points, if I attempted this, it might be better done one after the other with an open bag to get better extraction.

I wonder if the strike temperature would scald the first batch were I to add one then the other. I wasn't imagining a great delay between the two.

I am hoping that the element cools down quickly enough once it is turned off that I can reach strike temperature, turn off and put my bags in without having to shield the element from the bags. This is an unknown at the moment.

Thanks again for your help and time. I am trying to research as much as I need to as I go along, but I am streched a little thin at the moment, so my enthusiasm has overtaken the amount of time I need to find straight answers to my off-piste enquiries via Google.

I will be trying to find a suitable recipe for a 5 gallon West Coast style American IPA in the next couple of days. I am still working out if I need to balance my Birmingham water to make it as good as possible, apparently the sulfate levels at least will need elevating.

It's an exciting time! I am glad I still have some kit ale to last me while I get going

 

[merrydown]

By God I am glad that you put me onto starting with a 5 gallon batch. You weren't kidding when you said the bag was heavy without a hoist

My boiler could handle a 6 or maybe 7 gallon batch, though until I get the hoist sorted, my back says 5 is just fine!