Fermenation and secondary (2+2+2) problems.

[Dutto]

Whoa there hoss!!

I don't understand the problem as it all seems to be happening too quickly!

Normally (I have broken this rule once or twice 'cos visitors got in the way), once fermentation is underway I don't even touch my brew until AT LEAST two weeks has passed. In some instances, all I ever see is a build up of trub at the bottom of the FV and in almost all of them there is no sign of life for at least six of the fourteen days.

So my first question is "How do you know you have an infection so quickly?" followed by "Are you sure that opening the FV to check up on the brew isn't causing the infection?"

A brew is mainly vulnerable to infection before the yeast has started to convert the sugar into alcohol and CO2. As the CO2 is produced it forms a protective blanket that sits on top of the wort and as the ABV increases it a) reduces the amount of sugar that wild yeasts can feed on and b) makes the brew less attractive to wild yeasts.

There are as many elements that can make a brew taste "off" as there are that can cause infections. They include pitch temperature, brew temperature, age of yeast, age of constituents, moulds within pipes and equipment, residue from sanitising liquids etc etc.

However, IF you are getting infections then I reckon that they must be occurring before you even pitch the yeast and suggest that you go back to basics where RULE ONE is "Nothing is allowed to touch the wort unless it has been sanitised."

It really is the most infuriating thing that can happen so please take the time to analyse EVERYTHING that you do; and remember that Sod's Law will make sure that the very last thing you check will be the one that is causing the problem.

 

[foxy]

First you are not doing your fermenter any favours by using bleach, bleach is corrosive, use sodium percarbonate to clean your fermenter then before pouring in the wort a couple of minutes with some starsan or phosphonic acid.
Unless I am capturing the co2 I use some clingfilm over my fermenters which gives a good enough seal, as mentioned above once your pitched yeast starts to work it makes it very hard for some interloping bacteria to take hold. Once your fermentation has stopped, between 1 to 2 weeks if you want to put it into a secondary make sure you do it under a blanket of co2, though this is not always necessary. If you are bottling and you have a temp controller, drop your temp to -1 degree for 24 to 48 hours, transfer to bottling bucket prime and bottle. There is no hard, fast rule about 2, 2, 2.

 

[pvt_ak]

I’ve not been following the 2+2+2 and all is well.
I ferment for 2 weeks in temp controlled brew fridge and do not open under any circumstances.
If I’ve reached FG after the two weeks and it’s stable I offload into a bottling bucket with prime Sugar and then bottle straight away, sticking back in the fridge for another week or so to condition.
Only exception being if I’m going to dry hop, and then I’ll use a secondary for a week.


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[peebee]

... once fermentation is underway I don't even touch my brew until AT LEAST two weeks has passed. ...

Generally a good policy, but what is being discussed here is a fermenter that doesn't seal airtight so the beer needs to be got out of there as soon as possible.

... A brew is mainly vulnerable to infection before the yeast has started to convert the sugar into alcohol and CO2. As the CO2 is produced it forms a protective blanket that sits on top of the wort and as the ABV increases it a) reduces the amount of sugar that wild yeasts can feed on and b) makes the brew less attractive to wild yeasts.
...
IF you are getting infections then I reckon that they must be occurring before you even pitch the yeast...

This is a common misconception, that carbon dioxide is heavier than air so it pools in the lowest spaces that will contain it. It does indeed... temporarily. Nature likes uniformity, and when you've got two liquids or gases that are miscible (will mix) they wont stay apart for long. Air currents will mix gases, but lacking those there is still things like "Brownian motion" (check out "The Hitch-Hikers Guide to the Galaxy", or Google perhaps). If carbon dioxide can go out, air, and any airborne bugs, can go in.

And some bugs prefer to feed on alcohol, not sugar. The composition of beer will deter many bugs, but there are plenty that will find it to their liking.

 

[Ali]

You can get short, stubby fermenters if you'd rather get things sealed up? I'm sure there would be a model that would fit in your fridge.

Just found a stainless steel fermenter that seals, and will fit in my fridge, so once Royal Mail do their stuff, I'll be back in business! Happy days....( and £112 worse off :grin:)

 

[Dutto]

........ Air currents will mix gases, but lacking those there is still things like "Brownian motion" (check out "The Hitch-Hikers Guide to the Galaxy", or Google perhaps). If carbon dioxide can go out, air, and any airborne bugs, can go in.

And some bugs prefer to feed on alcohol, not sugar. The composition of beer will deter many bugs, but there are plenty that will find it to their liking.

Er ... a few points.

1a) In the case of fermenting beer there is a constant production of CO2 that cancels out molecular movement through the tiny gaps that may be found in a FV. (Also, rather than resort to books, I prefer to use the speed at which a quality fart can cross a room to explain Brownian Motion.)

1b) It is NOT a "common misconception" that CO2 is heavier than air! It is a fact. :nono: :nono:

1c) There is a massive difference in size between that of a single fluid molecule (which is subject to Brownian Motion) and that of a bacterial cell. This is why beer will eventually clear. Bacteria is more affected by gravity than Brownian Motion and will eventually fall to the bottom of a container, if it is heavier than the medium in which it is suspended (or float if it is lighter). This includes tight and even solid emulsions. They too will separate eventually under the influence of heat and/or time and/or pressure!

2) For sure, in the case of beer, bacteria and yeasts will attack the constituents that are NOT alcohol. However, after steeping dried prunes in 50% ABV Calvados for five years I have yet to meet a bacteria that can attack anything in that particular jar; which is why many foodstuffs are preserved in alcohol. :thumb:

 

[peebee]

Er ... a few points.

1a) In the case of fermenting beer there is a constant production of CO2 that cancels out molecular movement through the tiny gaps that may be found in a FV. ...

That is why I said monitor the fermentation and shift the beer into secondary when fermentation is done. Instead of just assuming it needs two weeks. Two weeks is fine when your primary seals, but if it doesn't... My ferments are done in two days (sometimes three) and it doesn't do to leave beer exposed without airlock for ten or more days.

... 1b) It is NOT a "common misconception" that CO2 is heavier than air! It is a fact. :nono: :nono: ...

You are misquoting me. The misconception is heavy CO2 stays pooled at the lowest levels. If that was the case there would be no trees and animals would need trees to find any oxygen.

...
1c) There is a massive difference in size between that of a single fluid molecule (which is subject to Brownian Motion) and that of a bacterial cell. This is why beer will eventually clear. Bacteria is more affected by gravity than Brownian Motion and will eventually fall to the bottom of a container, if it is heavier than the medium in which it is suspended (or float if it is lighter). This includes tight and even solid emulsions. They too will separate eventually under the influence of heat and/or time and/or pressure! ...

True ... ish. I remember my Louis Pasteur experiments from school. And a bent bit of pipe holding back bugs from a culture medium. Can't think why anybody bothers to put liquid in their airlocks?

...
2) For sure, in the case of beer, bacteria and yeasts will attack the constituents that are NOT alcohol. However, after steeping dried prunes in 50% ABV Calvados for five years I have yet to meet a bacteria that can attack anything in that particular jar; which is why many foodstuffs are preserved in alcohol. :thumb:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetic_acid_bacteria.
My yeast for ginger beer is relying on bacteria to clean up the alcohol that would otherwise kill this yeast. There is a few such symbiotic cultures (kombucha is another one).
I think the figure for a sterile alcohol medium is 20% ABV?


(EDIT: Okay, "Brownian motion" was perhaps a bad example, chosen for "clever ****" points. But other mechanisms that will create "tides" of air movement in and out of an unsealed container include atmospheric pressure, humidity and temperature - or weather conditions if you prefer.).

 

[DoctorMick]

That is why I said monitor the fermentation and shift the beer into secondary when fermentation is done. Instead of just assuming it needs two weeks. Two weeks is fine when your primary seals, but if it doesn't... My ferments are done in two days (sometimes three) and it doesn't do to leave beer exposed without airlock for ten or more days.

How do you manage to get your beer to ferment out that quickly? I'm sure I pitch appropriate size starters at the right temp but the best I can manage is 4 days but even then it is usually a little longer. I guess aeration could be the difference, I run an air stone for about half an hour but maybe that's not enough.

 

[peebee]

How do you manage to get your beer to ferment out that quickly? I'm sure I pitch appropriate size starters at the right temp but the best I can manage is 4 days but even then it is usually a little longer. I guess aeration could be the difference, I run an air stone for about half an hour but maybe that's not enough.

Dunno. Can you tell me?

I could say "always has", but if I go back far enough there was a time when ferments used to take a week. I'll have been using yeast gleaned from a bottle of Guinness back then, I think the bit change was when I could get the likes of "Nottingham" and "Windsor" packet yeasts (there was also "London" and some other back then).

I do aeriated with an air stone (stainless) for 20-30 minutes but I'm about to go over to pure oxygen - simply for convenience as it only takes a minute and I don't need to bother with anti-bacterial filters; which are expensive, I often find I haven't got a "clean" one and they explode when I put too much pressure in them!

So that debunks the aeriation idea. Back to "dunno". I do brew all-grain and know extract brewing is generally more leisurely. Temperature isn't it - I did used to brew at about 25-28C, but it's all 18-20C now (I've even just upgraded to temperature control to keep it there).

 

[peebee]

Here's a recent one. And a bit warm, it was this that convinced me to rig up temperature control. That first sector is three days and it started well into the first day.

 

[Martybhoy]

Dunno. Can you tell me?

I could say "always has", but if I go back far enough there was a time when ferments used to take a week. I'll have been using yeast gleaned from a bottle of Guinness back then, I think the bit change was when I could get the likes of "Nottingham" and "Windsor" packet yeasts (there was also "London" and some other back then).

I do aeriated with an air stone (stainless) for 20-30 minutes but I'm about to go over to pure oxygen - simply for convenience as it only takes a minute and I don't need to bother with anti-bacterial filters; which are expensive, I often find I haven't got a "clean" one and they explode when I put too much pressure in them!

So that debunks the aeriation idea. Back to "dunno". I do brew all-grain and know extract brewing is generally more leisurely. Temperature isn't it - I did used to brew at about 25-28C, but it's all 18-20C now (I've even just upgraded to temperature control to keep it there).

Peebee, can you tell me where you got your air stone and pump from, and oxygen too?

Cheers

 

[Martybhoy]

Peebee, can you tell me where you got your air stone and pump from, and oxygen too?

Cheers

 

[johnbarleycorn]

Hello mate,
ive only speed read all the replies to your post- but, since getting a brew fridge and a stainless fermenter (bl++dy big stock pot and lid) and using starsan ive had NO infections.
I used to use plastic FV with no temp control......had plenty of ruined brews back in early 2000's.
Also, make sure you strip your taps out for every brew....its amazing what can lurk in there......
Good luck

 

[peebee]

Peebee, can you tell me where you got your air stone and pump from, and oxygen too?

Cheers

Airstone: Possibly here. It was the threaded one so as to mount it in a tri-clover fitting so it fixes directly to the dump valve on my conical fermenter.
Pump: Amazon. It's 12V car-tyre pump because those SS 2um air stones need a bit of welly (EDIT; they're not 2um, they're 0.5um). Takes a bit of welly to move the pump too - a big power supply not one of those puny plugin ones (EDIT: Oops, wrong link, but changed now. It was a 20A supply, don't bother trying those 1-2A plugin ones). The filters are made for hospital breathing masks, like these. Remove the mouthpiece! They've got quite rare now, and expensive hence the move to oxygen.
Oxygen: A local garage (in Wales "local" means 8 miles away - I'm lucky) who are a BOC supplier, but like to sell the "Hobby weld" cylinders. I'm not sure about the 65quid deposit yet.

 

[Martybhoy]

Cheers Peebee, I'll have a look

 

[JapanBrew]

Woa, ok first. Little too drunk to fully grasp all the conversations but Foxy and Dutto put enough out there to start focusing on the issue. I think it was foxy who said bleach and that solution tinkering... first, sterilization and sanitation are not the same. Cambden tablets don't kill the yeast, just stun them. And for aggressive wild yeast, cambden does nothing. If your using stainless for your FV, you've just stepped into pro brewing zones. You have to spend a lot of time acid cleaning that FV. Stainless is much more poress than glass. My very good friend who has a very large brewery in Japan, runs almost boiling water through his FV to kill anything in them.
My opinion is your getting your wild yeast going on that secondary 2 week cycle. Yeast is territorial and will push out the more upper class brewers yeast. Basically an eviction notice. If the 2 2 2 thing isn't working, I think then you'll need to back up and focus on temperature control for your primary to get it wrapped up and kegged. The pressure pushes the yeast into sleep mode. Even the wild ones.
So, I would focus on asking foxy and dutto, dad as well, smart dude. But you have a sterilization issue not a sanitation issue.

 

[cmwood64]

One thing which I don't think has been mentioned is yeast. Do you use dry or liquid yeast? I was using liquid yeast and started getting infections. I suspect my sanitation was not up to scratch. I was re-using the yeast several times and think it was getting infected. Switched to dry yeast and bought a new fermenter to be safe and the problem has disappeared. A lot less work with dry yeast and can't say the beer is noticeably worse for it.

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[terrym]

Stainless is much more poress than glass.

That's an interesting statement, and one I can't fully agree with. Contamination of SS doesn't migrate below the surface due to any perceived porosity. It stays on the surface but if the surfaces are not polished there are microscopic sites in which the contamination can hide. That's why stainless steel vessels in the food, brewing, pharmaceutical and nuclear industries have internal services polished to a standard aligned to their use, in an effort to minimise contamination sites.
As far as glass is concerned then I can only imagine that it is less likely to have microscopically 'rough' areas due to its physical construction and properties, and on that point I agree it is less likely to present a surface that can become contaminated.

 

[JapanBrew]

That's an interesting statement, and one I can't fully agree with. Contamination of SS doesn't migrate below the surface due to any perceived porosity. It stays on the surface but if the surfaces are not polished there are microscopic sites in which the contamination can hide. That's why stainless steel vessels in the food, brewing, pharmaceutical and nuclear industries have internal services polished to a standard aligned to their use, in an effort to minimise contamination sites.
As far as glass is concerned then I can only imagine that it is less likely to have microscopically 'rough' areas due to its physical construction and properties, and on that point I agree it is less likely to present a surface that can become contaminated.

You just supported my statement. Oh, how do I explain this, what homebrewers buy for under 100 pounds is no where near what the specs are for large industry uses. When you get to production levels, the amount of time spent on sterilizing your equipment is so compounded that it would drive us homebrewers nuts. We just throw some starsan in our FV. But these super larger stainless steel FV, go through this regiment that is off the scale. Food companies put all their stainless into high temp, sterilization procedures that cost a ton. But cheaper than a lawsuit. I myself am moving into stainless FV as my current system can't handle the load. So I'm spending 80% of my time on what I used spend 10% of time on. The OP needs to focus on his FV and get hard advice on working with stainless in this field. That's what I'm stating.

 

[peebee]

What would really solve the problem is what I use: "PeeBee's Home Brewing Cure All". It'll prevent any infection, aerates your wort, provide a full range of yeast nutrient, increases ABV by 20%, and just about anything else.

...

Stick to the obvious, the fermenter doesn't seal and the beer is left in there unprotected for several days. "Ali" (of the OP) has already gone with this idea and is awaiting his new sealable fermenter. If he still has problems he'll be back for more suggestions but doesn't need more suggestions just now (especially ones suggesting he's spent his money doing the wrong thing); or else he'll be back after my patented snake oil.