Fermenation and secondary (2+2+2) problems.

[Ali]

Morning all.

I have seen on this forum that a lot of members advocate the 2+2+2 system for brewing (2 weeks ferment, 2 weeks secondary, 2 weeks maturing), however whenever I have tried this, the brew has always ended up getting a wild yeast infection, spoiling the whole batch. I can certainly see the point of the above, but can't seem to get past the first stage before the batch is spoiled by infection.
I use a grainfather for brewing and always sterilize with a bleach mixture (concentration as recommended by Graham Wheeler in his book), which is run through the chiller, then boiling water and finally when the brew is finished, a final 15 minutes recirculating the wort through before pumping to fermenter.
My fermenter is a stainless steel 32 litre stock pot and lid (can't fit anything bigger in my fridge where I ferment the brew), and again I use a bleach solution for 15 minutes, rinse with water and then a final rinse with a campden tablet added to neutralize any remaining bleach. This is all done just before the end of brewing. Before finally pumping the brew in, I scold the fermenter with boiling water, put the lid on and leave for five minutes before draining and pumping the wort in.
Even by doing this, I cannot get the brew to go two weeks before it gets infected. This normally kicks in around day 10, so I have been stopping after 6-7 days (when FG is near or at where it should be), cold crashing and then kegging. Whilst this has solved the infection problem, I feel the brews would be better if I could leave them for longer to develop.
Can anyone shine a light on what I am doing wrong?

 

[henteaser]

My fermenter is a stainless steel 32 litre stock pot and lid

Does the lid have a seal?

 

[Ali]

Yes it does. I have had to make one, which is a length of silicone hose split down to middle to allow it to fit over the rolled rim of the pot. I remove this every time and put it in bleach solution, rinse, re-rinse and then cover it with boiling water for 10-15 minutes. As the silicone hose 'grips' the lid, I don't think that anything can enter from outside. I have even pushed the lid down to push some air out, and it only very slowly let the air out.

 

[sdt7618]

Given that you are getting nothing infected when you are cutting short the time that would suggest you are not air tight and are getting the infection from that. Have you tried using another FV that gives a good seal?

 

[henteaser]

Given that you are getting nothing infected when you are cutting short the time that would suggest you are not air tight and are getting the infection from that. Have you tried using another FV that gives a good seal?

I'd have to agree considering time seems to be the variable.

Unless the lid you've described some how clamps tight shut, and you're using an air lock, you're essentially open fermenting.

Larger FVs can get away with open fermentations due to the sheer volume of wort, but for our small batches, until high krausen we're susceptible to air-bourne yeast and bacteria.

 

[Martybhoy]

How is the infection showing? Smell, mould, gushers?

Is it wise to be bleaching everything so intensely and frequently? I've never had an infection and never used bleach. I'd be afraid to.

 

[terrym]

First it seems to me your problem is nothing to do with the 2+2+2 process, it's really all about infections occuring during the fermentation stage or before, if I understand what you have described.
How many brews have gone wrong after 10 days or longer?
Have any brews at 10 days or longer gone OK?
Have all your brews at 6/7 days completed successfully?
Other than cutting short the time in the FV have you done anything else to your brewing process e.g. additional cleaning which has now resulted in success.
If you have done something else have you tried another brew at 10 days or longer?

 

[Ali]

Given that you are getting nothing infected when you are cutting short the time that would suggest you are not air tight and are getting the infection from that. Have you tried using another FV that gives a good seal?

Hi. I haven't tried another F.V. as my problem is that it won't fit in my brew fridge. I have to ferment outside in the shed, which causes problems with temperature swings. In the last week it has varied between 12c at night and 29c in the day! I am thinking that the seal is the weak area, but as DIY is definitely NOT my strong point, I'm not sure how I can clamp the lid down. Even if I did, there would still be an issue with fitting the fermentation lock and getting it to fit in the fridge. I think I will have to keep searching for a short, stubby fermenter. Or maybe that fancy new piece of kit from the Grainfather....If I go that route does anybody know of a good divorce lawyer?? :lol:

 

[Ali]

How is the infection showing? Smell, mould, gushers?

Is it wise to be bleaching everything so intensely and frequently? I've never had an infection and never used bleach. I'd be afraid to.

Hi. I get a green cobweb like covering over the surface of the fermenting brew mostly, along with a 'sharp' taste/smell. I do get gushers, but normally before that when I try the brew it tastes very harsh, almost like bitter orange taste.
I was using starsan and started getting problems, so went back to bleach, which seems to have helped, but as I've yet to let a brew do a full two weeks ferment, I don't have conclusive proof that it has done the job.

 

[Martybhoy]

29° is high. I'd panic if my brews fermented at that temp.

 

[Ali]

First it seems to me your problem is nothing to do with the 2+2+2 process, it's really all about infections occuring during the fermentation stage or before, if I understand what you have described.
How many brews have gone wrong after 10 days or longer?
Have any brews at 10 days or longer gone OK?
Have all your brews at 6/7 days completed successfully?
Other than cutting short the time in the FV have you done anything else to your brewing process e.g. additional cleaning which has now resulted in success.
If you have done something else have you tried another brew at 10 days or longer?

I have to agree, I now think that the infection is creeping in during fermentation. The last three batches that were done for longer than 10 days all got infected. The two 6/7 day ferments have been fine. After getting the infections, I went back to bleach and the regime I described and haven't had any problems, but then again, I haven't fermented for loger than 7 days! Just got to steel myself and let a brew caryy on I think.

As an aside, is it worth fermenting for two weeks (at say 20c), racking off and dropping the temp down to say 16c for two weeks, then kegging, or is there no point in racking off?

Many thanks for all the replies, most helpful :thumb:

 

[Martybhoy]

Just realised you don't ferment in the shed.

My bad.

 

[sdt7618]

How tall and wide can you fit? as a 32l stock pot is still 32l of volume needing contained

 

[Ali]

29° is high. I'd panic if my brews fermented at that temp.

It does get even hotter, hence my need to ferment in my fridge. I can generally keep to within a degree or so of my chosen temperature (20c for ales), but in summer at least not using the fridge would be difficult, if not impossible!

 

[peebee]

The "2+2+2" suggestion is a relatively new thing. It came about because most people started fermenting in sealed fermenters with an airlock. But you are not using a sealed fermenter, even if you've gone to elaborate means to try and achieve it. Return to the older (and admittedly dodgier) method of open ferment ("open" by name only, just use your current fermenter) where you watch your fermentation ending (either by eye, seeing the krausen dissolve back and/or much reduced appearance of bubbles on the surface, or, better, using a hydrometer looking for 1.020 or less) and transfer it to a secondary with airlock. This might only be a week, even just 2-3 days which is how long my "primary" fermentations are.

Be careful what you do with your fermentation fridge from here on. It has obviously developed a bit of a fauna that will jump on anything it gets a chance at now.

 

[terrym]

I have to agree, I now think that the infection is creeping in during fermentation. The last three batches that were done for longer than 10 days all got infected. The two 6/7 day ferments have been fine. After getting the infections, I went back to bleach and the regime I described and haven't had any problems, but then again, I haven't fermented for loger than 7 days! Just got to steel myself and let a brew caryy on I think.

As an aside, is it worth fermenting for two weeks (at say 20c), racking off and dropping the temp down to say 16c for two weeks, then kegging, or is there no point in racking off?

Many thanks for all the replies, most helpful :thumb:

If it were me I would give everything another 'superclean' and then go back to 10 days or more in the FV for another brew. Hopefully by then your problem should have been solved, but you wont know until you have tried it out.
I usually keep my beers in the FV for about ten days or so then rack off and then leave for a further six or seven days usually in conjunction with a dry hop. In cooler weather I might move to the cold end of my garage for the last two days. That usually gives me clear or almost clear beer which I look for when packaging to reduce yeast load going forward (but with enough yeast to carbonate).
Some folks don't rack their beers fearing an increased infection risk, but I have had no problems doing what I do.

 

[Ali]

The "2+2+2" suggestion is a relatively new thing. It came about because most people started fermenting in sealed fermenters with an airlock. But you are not using a sealed fermenter, even if you've gone to elaborate means to try and achieve it. Return to the older (and admittedly dodgier) method of open ferment ("open" by name only, just use your current fermenter) where you watch your fermentation ending (either by eye, seeing the krausen dissolve back and/or much reduced appearance of bubbles on the surface, or, better, using a hydrometer looking for 1.020 or less) and transfer it to a secondary with airlock. This might only be a week, even just 2-3 days which is how long my "primary" fermentations are.

Be careful what you do with your fermentation fridge from here on. It has obviously developed a bit of a fauna that will jump on anything it gets a chance at now.

Thank you!
My fridge is about to get a blast of my bleach cleaning routine now; I hadn't even thought about how it might be harbouring something up. To the sprayer!!

 

[The Idiot]

I'd get a bigger fridge; they're cheap enough on popular auction sites, and then use a sealed fermenter. If you consider the costs of spoiled batches and bleach, it will be a cheaper route!

 

[DoctorMick]

You can get short, stubby fermenters if you'd rather get things sealed up? I'm sure there would be a model that would fit in your fridge.

 

[Hoddy]

I don't know if it's me but I didn't see you mention the word "starsan" or Milton, or any other sterilants.

Bleach is ok, but it's not a great sterilant. And hot water is fine, but unless your maintaining a temp above 98oc for at least 15 minutes that's not really sterilising. And to me it sounds like you have bacteria that that although reduced in numbers, just need time to multiply to affect your brews.

As others have said I would consider consider investing in a new replacement fermenter (assuming it's a plastic one) and then adding into your preparation routine a long soak in a strong dilution of starsan (after a thorough strip down and clean with a cleaning product) of your fermenter before use. Make sure you fully submerged everything and ensure everything has contact with the solution for at least 15 minutes.

I've had beers in the same fermenter for nearly 4 weeks with no troubles.


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