Emulating cask ale - what's the average shelf life?

[BlackRegent]

Calling all you cask ale emulators out there, including the indomitable @peebee

What do you find is the average shelf life of a kegged real(ish) ale which is served either using a LPG regulator or cask breather?

My experiences to date have been mixed. My ESB (which admittedly has been on tap for c.4 months but hasn't been exposed to the air as far as I'm aware) has definitely turned, gone cloudy and taken on a distinct farmhouse-y taste. It's not undrinkable, but I wouldn't serve it to guests. Whereas my plum porter (which has now been in the keg for 6 months) only seems to get better.

 

[marshbrewer]

I suppose a brew is either exposed to air at some point, or it's not; the serving pressure its under shouldn't make any difference to shelf life, should it?

 

[AnimatedGIF]

Watching this with interest as it's a route I am going to be taking.

 

[BlackRegent]

I suppose a brew is either exposed to air at some point, or it's not; the serving pressure its under shouldn't make any difference to shelf life, should it?

I agree that's the theory but it doesn't seem to be that way in practice. For example, RLBS suggest their cask breather will only preserve the beer for up to 20 days, yet the beer shouldn't see any air at all if it's used properly.

I was keen to see what everyone's experience was of keeping cask ale fresh (or fresh enough to be drinkable) at low pressures.

I have to say that stuff kept under high pressure (my lagers and hoppy pales etc) seem to last for ages without any noticeable drop off in drinkability.

But that begs the question - why the difference? Is there even a difference?

 

[peebee]

I had to lookup "indomitable"! What came back was "impossible to subdue or defeat", which I suppose might be accurate (not enough sense to understand when he's being put down!).

The question is answered in my "treatise", in fact it was the reason for me writing the "treatise", and trying to rationalise the subject by coming up with the very subjective "perceived as flat" idea.

Why are breathers only expected to extend life expectancy of beer and not preserve it? Breathers maintain zero relative pressure over the beer which will then retain a bit less than 1 volume of CO2 dissolved the beer. But it takes a while (maybe weeks) for the CO2 volumes in the beer to reach equilibrium with it's surroundings that are 100% CO2 at zero relative pressure (relative to air or atmospheric pressure). If the cask is open to the atmosphere the surroundings are only 0.04% CO2 and the beer will eventually drop to that level if left long enough, but would go off long before then. If not using a breather the cask must be "hard spiled" when not serving to slow down the process of CO2 loss.

Most people (amongst "Real Ale" drinkers that is) perceive the beer as "flat" before the beer reaches 1 volume of dissolved CO2 (depending on beer type). Hence I recommend LPG regulators which will maintain up to 1.1 volumes of CO2 dissolved in the beer indefinitely.

That answers one question, but what of the next: Why does beer become "sub-prime" after a handful of weeks? Some beers were intended to be drunk "fresh" ("mild" to use the arcane term) and not "matured" ("stale" being the arcane term). Because the beer is normally drunk fresh, it's matured state (when the yeast has fully attenuated the beer, and other more subtle changes) isn't what is expected (the beer is "stale" in the modern meaning of the term), and amplified because it is served warmer than "keg" and considerably less carbonated than "keg". The worst examples I've had are Marsden's Pedigree clones with high sulphate (gypsum) content; the documented features of gypsum kick in after about three or four weeks ("like sticking your tongue on a well used blackboard"), and as an opposite example an 18th century style "Porter" (hand-pumped) which was going well after a year (I had a lot of it to get through!).

Exclusively "keg" drinkers don't have these issues, but neither do they get to appreciate the plus side. Poor devils.

Once-upon-a-time some of this sort of talk was heresy to CAMRA members and I'd be burned at a stake for saying it.

 

[peebee]

If I'd taken more note of the OP rather than just the last post, I'd have noticed a third question. That of going cloudy and farmhouse (farmyard?) taints.

Home-brew is not usually pasteurised, nor would I recommend it. And "Real Ale" emulations wont be chilled (I certainly wont be recommending it). But all home-brew can harbour all sorts of latent bugs in numbers too small to cause an issue. So four months at temperatures between cellar-temp. and warm-house-temp. might cause such bugs to multiple and make their presence known. Another hazard of keeping beer perhaps longer than intended? Solution? Be even more careful to keep things sanitary (an impossible task to be perfect), use even more antiseptic hops like the olden days, drink beers quicker (!). If you have no sense of taste, keep your beer in a fridge.

(Carol ... can you check the doors are locked ... I think I've just called up another lynch mob).

 

[CD]

I regularly work my way through four PBs of ale from the same brew, and by the time the last one is coming to an end it is some 70 to 80 days after they were filled. I keep the beer at around 12 C and ensure no air comes into contact with it until the moment it lands in my glass and have never had any trouble with it going off.

 

[Hazelwood Brewery]

Cask ale - a week if you’re very lucky unless you’re using a breather and then you might get a month (if you’re lucky).

Cloudy - would you accept it in a pub?

 

[CD]

Cask ale - a week if you’re very lucky unless you’re using a breather and then you might get a month (if you’re lucky).

Cloudy - would you accept it in a pub?

I don't use a cask breather (any more), and I must be very lucky!

 

[Hazelwood Brewery]

I don't use a cask breather (any more), and I must be very lucky!

Be lucky darlin’!

 

[Hazelwood Brewery]

I regularly work my way through four PBs of ale from the same brew, and by the time the last one is coming to an end it is some 70 to 80 days after they were filled. I keep the beer at around 12 C and ensure no air comes into contact with it until the moment it lands in my glass and have never had any trouble with it going off.

Seriously I don’t think you’re comparing like for like. A traditional cask doesn’t retain pressure where your PB will retain pressure almost indefinitely. If you take the cap off your PB I suspect you’ll be lucky to get a week from it.

 

[CD]

Seriously I don’t think you’re comparing like for like. A traditional cask doesn’t retain pressure where your PB will retain pressure almost indefinitely. If you take the cap off your PB I suspect you’ll be lucky to get a week from it.

I would agree with you duckie, which is why I connect a foil balloon, which has carbon dioxide inside it and Noddy on the outside, to the cap. This has the same effect as using a cask breather with the added advantage that you can serve the beer by gravity if you want to.

 

[Hazelwood Brewery]

I would agree with you duckie, which is why I connect a foil balloon, which has carbon dioxide inside it and Noddy on the outside, to the cap. This has the same effect as using a cask breather with the added advantage that you can serve the beer by gravity if you want to.

View attachment 49974

Yep, that would do the job. Just for a moment I wondered “what’s a Noddy?”

 

[CD]

Is that little picture on the left a clue?

 

[Buffers brewery]

You could always try doing it the other way around and you don’t need CO2......

https://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/threads/hand-pull-pumps-and-balloons.94758/

 

[TonyT]

I regularly work my way through four PBs of ale from the same brew, and by the time the last one is coming to an end it is some 70 to 80 days after they were filled. I keep the beer at around 12 C and ensure no air comes into contact with it until the moment it lands in my glass and have never had any trouble with it going off.

I agree. I’ve always used PBs for the simplicity of it, and never had any issues. As you say, no air gets in until you pour it and that way it stays good for a long time. I do that with my cider too, and last years was made in October, started drinking it a couple of months ago and its still fine. Cider doesn’t seem to carbonate as much so I just top up the co2 occasionally via an S30 valve.

 

[RoomWithABrew]

Brewed and then transferred into a keg under pressure with no oxygen and then kept cool and under a CO2 blanket " it " lasts months, marzen from march drinking well in december, that's the keg advantage and disadvantage.
But real ale is brewed, casked and second ferment and then released for joy and lasts a few days, much like a butterfly.
Keep that butterfly in a jar and it's really not the same.

A breathed cask ale is a moth amongst butterflies, both beautiful and different.

We struggle as home brewers to have a volume and consumption that will satisfy a half pin as real ale, but the breather does let us smell that chance.