Electric cars.

[Rodcx500z]

Now manufactures have demonstrated the demand is not there how does the government fix this

The same way they fixed the black hole, more tax

 

[old dog new tricks]

The same way they fixed the black hole, more tax

More tax will not increase sales tho

 

[Brew_DD2]

More tax will not increase sales tho

More tax on petrol/diesel cars might. You don't need to ban something to make it less desirable. If the government can't afford incentives, then they could always continue to disincentivise ICE motors.

 

[JockyBrewer]

A bit of me feels like the manufacturers are moaning because they can't just carry on as they are and are having to invest in new technology. They've also concentrated on EVs at the higher end of the market leaving cheap EVs to new Chinese manufacturers.

Equally though I think that there's things that need to be done at government level to address consumer concerns - mainly charging infrastructure. It also doesn't help being out of step with Europe on the ICE phase out.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

This was discussed yesterday on 5 live one guy has traded his EV in for a new diesel be said with adblue they are now really clean and he gets lots of mpg and no range anxiety.

 

[old dog new tricks]

A bit of me feels like the manufacturers are moaning because they can't just carry on as they are and are having to invest in new technology. They've also concentrated on EVs at the higher end of the market leaving cheap EVs to new Chinese manufacturers.

Equally though I think that there's things that need to be done at government level to address consumer concerns - mainly charging infrastructure. It also doesn't help being out of step with Europe on the ICE phase out.

To be fair manufacturers will always moan and look for hand outs that just business.

I agree there is not enough low cost options hence why the Chinese and Koreans are filling the void.

Fully agree infrastructure is not up to scratch and public charging prices are scandalous.

Core issue is lack of demand, they cost too much too expensive to insure (and charge unless at home)

Worst thing that can happen is increase the phase out times for ICE or reduce the % of sales requirements then the manufacturers will just respond to customer demand and make more ICE and reduce investment in EVs.

The idea of fining them or having to buy credits from other manufacturers is not working. now the £40 expensive cat tax levy is in place why not use that as lever. If they want to drive a real change implement a staggered system eg EVs under £20k get 3 credits, under £30k get 2 and under £40k get 1, Anything over list price £40k gets 0 or have rising scale going into minus credits for high value, force manufactures to pass the cost on at top end only. Any fines or non compliance go to Gov rinf fenced to charging infrastructure improvements.

Not saying would fix all issues but might offer consumer a genuine choice

 

[old dog new tricks]

This was discussed yesterday on 5 live one guy has traded his EV in for a new diesel be said with adblue they are now really clean and he gets lots of mpg and no range anxiety.

With the decisions currently in place this would also work out cheaper in some situations (no home charger and covering longer distances).

This is part of my concern in the blatant tax grab they are turning consumers away form EVs

 

[Larse]

I agree there is not enough low cost options hence why the Chinese and Koreans are filling the void.

What would you define as 'low cost'? And in that respect what are the equivalent ICE cars?

Fully agree infrastructure is not up to scratch and public charging prices are scandalous.

UK is a bit of an outlier with regard to public charging prices. Much cheaper around Europe.

Core issue is lack of demand, they cost too much too expensive to insure (and charge unless at home)

Is the difference in insurance cost that much? I've seen averages of about 12%. As for too expensive, there are plenty of used EVs around. Many of them only a few years old and hugely depreciated.

 

[JockyBrewer]

This was discussed yesterday on 5 live one guy has traded his EV in for a new diesel be said with adblue they are now really clean and he gets lots of mpg and no range anxiety.

With Adblue diesels are about as clean as a petrol car.

 

[old dog new tricks]

What would you define as 'low cost'? And in that respect what are the equivalent ICE cars?

UK is a bit of an outlier with regard to public charging prices. Much cheaper around Europe.

Is the difference in insurance cost that much? I've seen averages of about 12%. As for too expensive, there are plenty of used EVs around. Many of them only a few years old and hugely depreciated.

Yes I bought a used EV the issue is new sales are slowing now they are not as an attractive option for leasing etc due to taxes etc, if the flow of new EVs stops or stalls it will affect the used market as well

 

[Brew_DD2]

A bit of me feels like the manufacturers are moaning because they can't just carry on as they are and are having to invest in new technology. They've also concentrated on EVs at the higher end of the market leaving cheap EVs to new Chinese manufacturers.

Equally though I think that there's things that need to be done at government level to address consumer concerns - mainly charging infrastructure. It also doesn't help being out of step with Europe on the ICE phase out.

Agree to a certain extent, but the idea that we can compete with the Chinese in manufacturing at low cost (what with their heavy government subsidy etc.) is for the birds.

I don't like how reliant we are, but there is no easy solution.

 

[Larse]

Yes I bought a used EV the issue is new sales are slowing now they are not as an attractive option for leasing etc due to taxes etc, if the flow of new EVs stops or stalls it will affect the used market as well

But it doesn't look like stalling or stopping. Growth has been steady.

And I asked what would you consider low cost for an EV? <£30k?

Edit: Just as a comparison, the top three bestselling cars in the UK this year are the Ford Puma (£25 - 33k), Kia Sportage (£29 - £45k) and Nissan Qashqai (£29 - £42k).

Lots of EVs fitting in to that price range.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

As we await the official government position on EVs, its clear the current policy is not working the mandated 22% of sales is not working currently its 19% for cars and lower for vans.

Actually the industry is on track - there's an allowance for producing low-CO2 ICE cars which means that the effective target is 18.1% this year - and according to the SMMT, that's exactly what's been sold in 2024 to date, and in October we were at 20.7% BEV. So the industry as a whole is on track, it's only those like Ford and the Japanese who have screwed up their strategy that are lobbying for special treatment.

The announcement that Vauxhall are pulling out and the government know about this and did not share is an issue and does not help build trust.

But the Luton decision is nothing to do with EVs. Vauxhall themselves were saying that they were “confident we’re going to be able to hit ZEV mandate by the end of the year [and] that we’re going to do it at reasonable profitability.” They've been doing things like cutting the price of e-Corsa and having the same price for electric and petrol Fronteras, so it's not surprising that they're on track unlike the likes of Ford who have concentrated on electrifying things like pickup trucks which are less relevant to the UK market.

But it all makes for a wonderful distraction from the real reasons which are 1) Vauxhall's owners have been trying to shut down Luton for years, it was always a bit of a problem child and 2) Brexit. Remember when one of the few economists to be in favour of Brexit, Patrick Minford told Parliament that after a hard Brexit "you will have a change in the situation facing [the car] industry, and you are going to have to run it down. It will be in your interests to do it, just as in the same way we ran down the coal and steel industries."

Those chickens are coming home to roost.

It also didn't help that at the critical moment in the late teens when manufacturers were making the big decisions on an electric future, the British government was led by a man who believed in "F*ck business" whilst maximising uncertainty about future investment conditions.

 

[old dog new tricks]

But it doesn't look like stalling or stopping. Growth has been steady. View attachment 106248

And I asked what would you consider low cost for an EV? <£30k?

Edit: Just as a comparison, the top three bestselling cars in the UK this year are the Ford Puma (£25 - 33k), Kia Sportage (£29 - £45k) and Nissan Qashqai (£29 - £42k).

Lots of EVs fitting in to that price range.

The UK figures show that sales for new EVs from manufactures in the UK are not reaching that required levels of the legislation, that indicated the % of EV compared to ICE is not rising.

I am not disputing your graph but its not what has been presented to the UK government.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Is the difference in insurance cost that much? I've seen averages of about 12%.

It's somewhat distorted by Teslas which are mostly insurance group 47-50, due to supply chain problems on spare parts, stupid design (like the tailgate on the Model Y sticking out more than the bumper, so minor prangs need a whole new tailgate rather than just a bumper straightening), and Thatcham not rating the security on their phone app.

 

[Larse]

The UK figures show that sales for new EVs from manufactures in the UK are not reaching that required levels of the legislation, that indicated the % of EV compared to ICE is not rising.

I am not disputing your graph but its not what has been presented to the UK government.

Well there was nothing in your post that indicated you were talking about UK manufacturers, so if I've missed the goal there, it's because it moved.

My graph is from ZapMap. It shows total BEV fleet size year by year and as a percentage of the total fleet.

 

[Larse]

It's somewhat distorted by Teslas which are mostly insurance group 47-50, due to supply chain problems on spare parts, stupid design (like the tailgate on the Model Y sticking out more than the bumper, so minor prangs need a whole new tailgate rather than just a bumper straightening), and Thatcham not rating the security on their phone app.

Yeah, thought Tesla might be a factor. Similar situation here in Ireland, but not across the board.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

With Adblue diesels are about as clean as a petrol car.

Are modern petrol cars classed as clean, genuine question.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Agree to a certain extent, but the idea that we can compete with the Chinese in manufacturing at low cost (what with their heavy government subsidy etc.) is for the birds.

How long before we follow America and make these cheap Chinese cars not look such a great bargain.