Electric cars.

[Chippy_Tea]

 

[old dog new tricks]

View attachment 99593

Pmsl that what happens to old washing machine motors then haha

 

[Omega]

Found at least bizarre, article that shows how easy it is to bend the truth
https://apple.news/AxGja6kvkSVyQ6Klj68TTsg
The truth is that Europe doesn’t have much resources to make own batteries for electric cars, only Norway has the rare earth minerals. However. Their excavation is very damaging to the environment, so it will be very expensive for Europe to extract them.
China, on the other hand, is not bothered that much with environmental issues and hence is one of the largest producers of these rare earth minerals. However, they are now powerful enough not to sell them at a fraction of their cost to us and started producing batteries. As a result, the price of production in China is naturally significantly lower than in Europe
Chinese electric car manufacturers get a massive profit per car sold in Europe vs in China. They can even absorb the tariffs and still make massive profits according to this blogger
His figures need verifying, but sounds plausible. Anyway, someone is trying to manipulate us. I will keep driving my petrol car for some time…

 

[old dog new tricks]

Found at least bizarre, article that shows how easy it is to bend the truth
https://apple.news/AxGja6kvkSVyQ6Klj68TTsg
The truth is that Europe doesn’t have much resources to make own batteries for electric cars, only Norway has the rare earth minerals. However. Their excavation is very damaging to the environment, so it will be very expensive for Europe to extract them.
China, on the other hand, is not bothered that much with environmental issues and hence is one of the largest producers of these rare earth minerals. However, they are now powerful enough not to sell them at a fraction of their cost to us and started producing batteries. As a result, the price of production in China is naturally significantly lower than in Europe
Chinese electric car manufacturers get a massive profit per car sold in Europe vs in China. They can even absorb the tariffs and still make massive profits according to this blogger
His figures need verifying, but sounds plausible. Anyway, someone is trying to manipulate us. I will keep driving my petrol car for some time…

Whilst I do not disagree with anything said in the video and I fully accept the environmental damage caused by mining the batteries I was aware of this prior to getting an EV.

BUT i chose a model made in the Czech Republic and battery made in Poland, not China (Hyundia Kona)

I do over 15k a year and keep my cars for 4 or 5 years, the difference in exhaust emissions and being future LEZ compliant made me change form diesel.

I have smart charger that only charges when the grid has capacity or takes excess when the grid is over capacity, it also links with my energy supplier to ensure it only uses Green energy (i can't verify if this is true tho).

Point I am making is i have done as much as I can afford at this time to reduce my emissions, if i could have afforded a solar or small turbine to feed a home battery i would have done that as well.

i am not saying EVs are perfect very far from it, but oil running out and we can't keep burning it for ever.

I made the change as it was the end of my last car deal it was not that much more expensive so for me was a straight choice. I am not saying everyone should ditch their cars immediately absolutely not, but if like me you come to choose your next vehicle, if it works for you ie you cab access a home charger or sensible price public charger then give it consideration.

Likewise when boiler needs replacing I will look at the options but do not expect to do that for years as its only a few years old serviced and working fine, so no need to think about a change.

 

[Omega]

Point I am making is i have done as much as I can afford at this time to reduce my emissions, if i could have afforded a solar or small turbine to feed a home battery i would have done that as well.

If you want wind turbine, then let me know and I will introduce you to Ripple Energy - we both should get some money off. It is not as economically viable as looks (invest £1.8k and get enough electricity to power your house for 20+ years when wind turbine wears out), but still better than nothing
By the way, did you sleep in your car? I would imagine it would hold perfect temperature because of limited space. And there are beds made specifically for electric cars. I often think about buying an electric car so that I travel to client's site and sleep in it - I no longer find it glamorous staying in hotels for business, so why not save money and have your home with you all the time? Yes, there is an inconvenience of not having a toilet, but, if people lived through 60s and 70s when toilets outside the house were still quite common, then you know you can manage it

 

[old dog new tricks]

If you want wind turbine, then let me know and I will introduce you to Ripple Energy - we both should get some money off. It is not as economically viable as looks (invest £1.8k and get enough electricity to power your house for 20+ years when wind turbine wears out), but still better than nothing
By the way, did you sleep in your car? I would imagine it would hold perfect temperature because of limited space. And there are beds made specifically for electric cars. I often think about buying an electric car so that I travel to client's site and sleep in it - I no longer find it glamorous staying in hotels for business, so why not save money and have your home with you all the time? Yes, there is an inconvenience of not having a toilet, but, if people lived through 60s and 70s when toilets outside the house were still quite common, then you know you can manage it

haha i would be lucky to fit in my car nah its transport and means to an end, its ok to drive and slightly cheaper to run its just a green choice long term it should break even or be slightly cheaper than diesel.

Sadly my employer insist on flying for cost reasons, and tbh when the flight is full sand i travel by bus and train at the Bristol end I do not feel as bad.

 

[dad_of_jon]

Whilst I do not disagree with anything said in the video and I fully accept the environmental damage caused by mining the batteries I was aware of this prior to getting an EV.

BUT i chose a model made in the Czech Republic and battery made in Poland, not China (Hyundia Kona)

I do over 15k a year and keep my cars for 4 or 5 years, the difference in exhaust emissions and being future LEZ compliant made me change form diesel.

I have smart charger that only charges when the grid has capacity or takes excess when the grid is over capacity, it also links with my energy supplier to ensure it only uses Green energy (i can't verify if this is true tho).

Point I am making is i have done as much as I can afford at this time to reduce my emissions, if i could have afforded a solar or small turbine to feed a home battery i would have done that as well.

i am not saying EVs are perfect very far from it, but oil running out and we can't keep burning it for ever.

I made the change as it was the end of my last car deal it was not that much more expensive so for me was a straight choice. I am not saying everyone should ditch their cars immediately absolutely not, but if like me you come to choose your next vehicle, if it works for you ie you cab access a home charger or sensible price public charger then give it consideration.

Likewise when boiler needs replacing I will look at the options but do not expect to do that for years as its only a few years old serviced and working fine, so no need to think about a change.

well done for making a better choice. where do the materials to make the battery in poland come from? those who care about sustainability have a hard time trying wade through all the smoke and mirrors big business put in our way.

 

[old dog new tricks]

well done for making a better choice. where do the materials to make the battery in poland come from? those who care about sustainability have a hard time trying wade through all the smoke and mirrors big business put in our way.

i will be honest I did not look beyond that for me it was more about the car and did i like it and the way it drives then the sustainability issues helped swing it, very hard to actually trace all car components, some parts of course will come from China or more likely Taiwan for the advanced electronics.

But knowing it was assembled in Europe did sit easier with me.

For the record the MG5 was the other cheap EV i looked at did not like the quality of it and the fact it was Chinese maybe subconsciously swayed me I do not know tbh

 

[tigertim]

Most of us "care" about sustainability, but we're subject to so much bias and misinformation and the "DO YOUR RESEARCH" brigade (who basically parrot the Daily Mail's unsubstantiated toss in a loud, authoritative manner) it's very difficult for anybody to be certain of the real facts. I went electric because it works out far cheaper for me, is far more pleasant to drive, fits in with my lifestyle better and can also be uncoupled from the fossil fuel industry for its entire life, once it has been delivered.

The only environmentally friendly option is not to drive, really. But, whilst every car leaves an environmental scar from its manufacture, electric cars are the only ones which have an option to limit the increase of that environmental debt throughout their life.

 

[tigertim]

It's an interesting point. Is the Fossil Fuel industry actually "more transparent" than the renewables industry, because at least they don't try to hide just how badly they're shafting the planet?

 

[Chippy_Tea]

For the record the MG5 was the other cheap EV i looked at did not like the quality of it and the fact it was Chinese maybe subconsciously swayed me I do not know tbh

MG got a slating for rust on nearly new cars this is 3 years old -

 

[ruskythegreat]

One point I hear thrown about is the energy needed to mine and process raw materials then produce the batteries lowers or is worse than the offset against ICE cars but I've yet to see any evidence either way on this.

 

[Alastair70]

One point I hear thrown about is the energy needed to mine and process raw materials then produce the batteries lowers or is worse than the offset against ICE cars but I've yet to see any evidence either way on this.

A simple google search will answer your question.
In a nut shell, after 1 year of average mileage EV’s surpass ICE. If you think about it, it makes sense. Extracting, refining and transporting fossil fuels across the globe has its own carbon footprint, not just the CO2 that comes out of your exhaust over the 200,000 miles your ICE is capable of doing.

 

[old dog new tricks]

Well I bought my Kona at 36k and just under 4 years old so reckon it's paid it's dues tbh I will rum into just over 100k. For a 4 year old car it looks fine no obvious issues as you would expect the 5 year warranty is due to run out but the battery has an 8 year warranty. Only complaint is the app subscription runs out at 5 years no one yet knows what that will cost or if it worth paying for

 

[Stu]

Frankly, I don't believe anything on YouTube either way good or bad.
It's an absolute hotbed of conspiracy and propaganda. The Russians and Chinese, in particular, are amazing at manipulating it.

Give me some peer-reviewed figures or facts. I'll buy them then.

Otherwise, that YouTube video is simply part of the $1bn "Marketing" that the oil barons have admitted to.

And no, the BBC aren't that reliable, but they tend to deal with facts. Even if they slightly skew them. My preference is Reuters.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/reel/video/p0...-did-youtube-help-spread-a-conspiracy-theory-

 

[old dog new tricks]

Basically ANYTHING online can be dubious, but common sense says mining to produce batteries is not a good thing hopefully a synthetic solution can be found or green hydrogen is properly explored.
I see EVs as stop gap the current ones at least either batteries and charging has to get much better or we need to develop alternatives. I like the idea of battery swaps that Chinese have shown this is possible takes away the issue of battery deg as you will never own it as such.
What I do not think is sustainable is to just blindly turning out more petrol and diesel cars, the more sensible approach would have been to mandate hybrid with minimum battery only range say start at 50 and rise every few years until they match EVs. That would allow the industry to transition and not just switch off overnight.
What I would like to see an EV with a good size battery and a hydrogen range extender engine/generator not driving the wheels but charging the battery with no emissions that is the near perfect solution.

Or a hybrid with a hydrogen powered engine and a gearbox that allows efficient motorway crusing like my old diesels did that my one complaint about EVs the poor efficiency at speed.

Or I know some high performance EVs have a 2 speed gearbox but moving away from performance for outright efficiency a slippy shape low slung EV with a big battery and variable gear ratio to maintain the fantastic efficiency could be the game changer and make the many who spend their lives on the motorway have a choice.

For fairness tesla do meet a lot of the requirements and have the excellent supercharger network but they are not affordable for most and have their own issues high insurance and reputation etc.

For EVs to be the genuine transition the vat on public and rapid chargers needs to be lowered or subsided to make it a genuine option.

While on a rant manufacturers need to be more aligned to charging networks in my area public chargers are commonly 7kw AC same as house, 11kw and 22kw AC or the occasional 50kw AC.
Rapid chargers 50kw DC some 100kw DC and not seen any of the mega fast ones above 100kw.

All sounds good but they are expensive especially council owned ones their AC are as expensive as private DC.

My issue is my car a 2020 model Hyundai Kona not cutting edge but not the worst BUT the onboard AC charger max out at 10kw this was the upgrade previously was 7kw I believe some early Nissan and Renault it was 3.4kw?
The DC is better goes to about 70kw in perfect conditions but solid 50kw I have seen no issue.

Point is why did manufacturers make EVs that could not use the full network available like the 22kw AC charger that would make a real difference.
The DC rate is ok but I know older ones can not get as high as this.

Things like this and hapharzard charging networks why oh why have the government not mandated a standard app for them all or a means of card payment at the charger.

This only applies in Scotland tbh but I had a hell of time with chargeplacescotland a lot of their chargers are app or RFID card only turns out many are RFID only and cannot be used via the app only find this out when charging will not start. Takes weeks to get the RFID card so was stuck for 6 weeks having to use other chargers at garages that took card payments

Needs to be a grown up conversation about transition away from ICE or fossil.fuelled ICE at least and all the options fully explored

 

[tigertim]

What I would like to see an EV with a good size battery and a hydrogen range extender engine/generator not driving the wheels but charging the battery with no emissions that is the near perfect solution.

I still think my BEV is the near perfect solution - for me, the weight, expense and complexity of a Hydrogen power plant on board, combined with having to go back to the old-fashioned inconvenience of having to go somewhere other than my front drive for fuel would be a massive step back. I make a 450+ mile round trip to the midlands in my 38kWh Ioniq once or twice a month. I charge to 100% overnight and normally stop for 20 minutes halfway through the 3.5 hour journey which I also generally used to do in my old Polo. Then do the same on the way back. I'm doing 1300 very mixed miles a month at the moment, and I genuinely can't see what benefit any kind of hybrid power plant would bring me other than some kind of comfort blanket.

I can see that people without home charging might find additional benefits but, even so, Hydrogen has been completely debunked as a suitable fuel for family cars - the lifecycle from generation through to compression, storage, transport and finally conversion back to electricity is just too inefficient to be the future of passenger car transportation at ~30%.

Point is why did manufacturers make EVs that could not use the full network available like the 22kw AC charger that would make a real difference.
The DC rate is ok but I know older ones can not get as high as this.

The convention is that AC charging is slow and DC charging is rapid. The only ones who bucked this trend as far as I know were Renault with the earlier Zoes which could charge at 43kW on AC, but they dropped this because of inherent limitations with power loss and cable sizes. Newer Zoes still have a 22kW 3-phase AC charger on board, but they're about the only ones to have this as standard. The truth is, most people in the UK charge at 7kW overnight on our domestic single-phase devices and charge at 50kW+ on the road on public rapid chargers. Providing a 3-phase on-board AC charger of either 11kW or 22kW is an additional expense which the vast majority of UK drivers would never benefit from.


ETA: It actually annoys me every time I see a 22kW AC charger. There is a power supply there capable of supplying three 7kW chargers which three EVs could be charging from. Instead, you'll see a single car charging at either 7kW or, at best, 11kW. A total waste of capacity.

 

[Stu]

The problem with any hydrogen is not just the cost - you can't change the laws of physics, so there's no way it can be cheaply produced like Electricity. And then there's the issue of storage. To store and move the stuff is really difficult. A tanker can only fill 10% of the same number of cars as petrol or diesel. And then there's the danger - we all know about the Hindenburg.

In terms of mining, lithium doesn't have to be mined - it's extracted from brine which occurs on the surface as well as underground.
It's the 25th most abundant element - we're really not short of it.

The bit that isn't great is Cobalt. Taking aside where it's mined from, it uses a decent amount of energy to do this (although not as much as some of the YouTube videos will tell you.

However, we're moving away from Cobalt - Tesla, for instance, no longer use it. Many other manufacturers are the same. Also, the batteries can be fixed and reused - see Tesla Power Walls. It's expected that by 2030, 35% of EV batteries will use recycled material. By 2040, it could be as high as 60%.

 

[old dog new tricks]

I still think my BEV is the near perfect solution - for me, the weight, expense and complexity of a Hydrogen power plant on board, combined with having to go back to the old-fashioned inconvenience of having to go somewhere other than my front drive for fuel would be a massive step back. I make a 450+ mile round trip to the midlands in my 38kWh Ioniq once or twice a month. I charge to 100% overnight and normally stop for 20 minutes halfway through the 3.5 hour journey which I also generally used to do in my old Polo. Then do the same on the way back. I'm doing 1300 very mixed miles a month at the moment, and I genuinely can't see what benefit any kind of hybrid power plant would bring me other than some kind of comfort blanket.

I can see that people without home charging might find additional benefits but, even so, Hydrogen has been completely debunked as a suitable fuel for family cars - the lifecycle from generation through to compression, storage, transport and finally conversion back to electricity is just too inefficient to be the future of passenger car transportation at ~30%.




The convention is that AC charging is slow and DC charging is rapid. The only ones who bucked this trend as far as I know were Renault with the earlier Zoes which could charge at 43kW on AC, but they dropped this because of inherent limitations with power loss and cable sizes. Newer Zoes still have a 22kW 3-phase AC charger on board, but they're about the only ones to have this as standard. The truth is, most people in the UK charge at 7kW overnight on our domestic single-phase devices and charge at 50kW+ on the road on public rapid chargers. Providing a 3-phase on-board AC charger of either 11kW or 22kW is an additional expense which the vast majority of UK drivers would never benefit from.

Well I have to disagree on the 22kw point as in my area there numerous 22kw public chargers but most like me cannot take advantage of the higher speed, onlt less than half of it, 50kw is expensive and using that it costs more per mile than my diesel did thats not viable.

I live in Scotland and going to see my kids or going up north the charging network is patchy, even travelling southwards public chargers are getting busy especially on motorways and its not just 20 mins to wait it can be the full extent of the other person charging (some leave their cars in charging bays for hours as well) plus the time taken to charge your own car. It can make a journey a LOT longer.

Hydrogen has been shunned but if you at JCB and a few others they are pushing on with hydrogen and have made great steps forward a normal ICE engine can run on hydrogen with modest changes this utilises a lot of existing technology that is readily available. I know not needed for all but this could be the final piece in the jigsaw that means petrol or diesel is no longer required.

 

[tigertim]

in my area there numerous 22kw public chargers but most like me cannot take advantage of the higher speed, onlt less than half of it

But when would they ever be of use? You're either on a journey where waiting for a reasonable charge of a 50kWh battery will take two hours, which is not acceptable, or you're charging overnight where you don't need your car to be charged in two hours and then the station tied up for 10 hours idle whilst nobody else can use it. As above, three 7kW chargers instead of a single 22kW charger makes a lot more sense to my mind. Three people can charge overnight instead of one.

JCB and a few others they are pushing on with hydrogen

It may make sense for some heavy plant and freight use cases, but not for private passenger transportation

a normal ICE engine can run on hydrogen with modest changes

That'd be using a 30% efficient fuel with a 30% efficient power plant. Burning things is generally the most efficient way of extracting heat, but just archaic and woefully inefficient in terms of extracting kinetic energy.