Electric cars.

[Benfleet Brewery]

Owning an EV is far less practical or economical if you aren’t able to charge at home.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Beats queueing for pumps.

While the lazy people queue to use the coffee machine blocking the pumps, that boils my **** every morning.

 

[Rodcx500z]

One of the benefits of being retired is missing the coffee people, they are to lazy to make it at home, all fuel stations should be made to have separate facilitys for shopping and coffee and if people fill up pay and leave their car while they shop 90 days in the cooler or make it law the shop is a minimum 300 yards away

 

[kenstel]

Owning an EV is far less practical or economical if you aren’t able to charge at home.

This is true. The same can be said for petrol if there isn't a petrol station on your regular route.

Let's look at history, because that's often a good guide as to possible future events.

Anyone remember when we all relied on candle light? No? Sure? I think probably a few of you do. Anyway, when gas became available, those that good afford it had gas pipes and gas mantles installed. A bit more convenient than candles as the gas was always there, whilst candles needed replacing and could be knocked over. Gas, of course could leak, but the advantages overcame resistance and gas became accepted.

Then electricity came along, and the same thing happened, those that could, installed it. Eventually, all new houses had it as standard, and old houses retro installed it.

Now, does anyone not see the future based on the above? No? Let me tell you that Part S of the building regulations requires all new build houses and conversions to have at least one residential type ie 7kW, charger.

If you don't have a drive/garage then it's a bit more difficult. However, if employers install chargers then you can charge there. This is already happening. I have a mate who was asking me about charging. He was toying with an EV but was worried about charging. Then his boss got an EV and had a charger installed at work,a basic 7kW. Then, when he saw the tax was so much lower for EVs than ICE (2% vs 8% I think) , he moved everyone with a company car on to EVs. Then realised they needed more chargers. So he had a couple of three phase chargers installed (21kW).these will charge most Ezvs in about 4 hours. As you're at work for 8 hours it solves the problem.

My mate asked if he could use the charger if he got an EV. Boss consulted with tax experts and came up with a solution so all employees with an EV could charge. ICE owners are not discriminated against though. Of the 15-20 employees, about 12 have moved to EVs. The others are thinking of it, and its generally accepted that they all will within a year or so.

Now, not all employers are so forward thinking. Some drivers will never have access to a personal charger, and conveniently placed public chargers will be needed, not just for them, but for drivers away from home.

Pavement chargers have been mentioned. There are various objects on pavements - lampposts, traffic lights, virgin media cabinets, BT cabinets, controllers for traffic lights, mobile phone masts and their cabinets. Any one of those objects could potentially be a charging point. Yes, there are technical and logistical difficulties to overcome. Let's not forget, traffic lights, pedestrian crossings etc were developed to manage the problems caused by the volume of traffic. No one ever thought when cars were in their infancy and affordable only by the wealthy that there would ever be so many cars on the road that their movement would need to be controlled. No one ever thought that there would need to be special high speed roads going from one end of the country to the other. But we accept their presence now without thinking.

There is an option that hasn't been mentioned : inductive charging. Similar to the way mobile phones charge wirelessly, the road has a charging plate on the road, the car is fitted with the other side of the circuit. When the car is parked over the charger, power is induced into the car. No wires. In Norway, they're very keen on EVs. Taxi ranks have inductive chargers fitted. The driver stops on the rank, accepts the offer to charge on his dashboard, the electronic handshake takes place, the car charges and his account is debited.. He doesn't even need to get out of the car. Its been suggested that similar chargers could be fitted on MWays here so cars charge as they go over the charger.

The number of available charging solutions is limited only by the imagination,but time is probably going to be the biggest contribution to any and all problems as the battery range will continue to increase and charging time will continue to decrease, and costs will decrease. Don't make the naive mistake that the problem that exists today, will still have the same significance next year, or still even exist next year. Because it won't.

 

[kenstel]

thanks to whoever did the long post, that was very interesting. The only part i disagreed with was on the economics of subsidies - if the govt choose to incentive EVs by making ICE driving more expensive, such that the overall cost of transport to the UK economy increases, then this will do economic harm

I never said they would, or should. I was responding to a previous post that stated that electricity generation from tidal power suffered because the sea is a hostile environment and maintenance of equipment was difficult and expensive and that affected the economics. All of that is true. My point was that the economics of tidal power can be affected by economic policies such as incentives and taxation. If tidal power receives incentives whilst CO2 emissions receives penalties, then tidal could become profitable.

It's dangerous to think that technology, society or economics stands still, because they don't.

 

[Rodcx500z]

Its been suggested that similar chargers could be fitted on MWays here so cars charge as they go over the charger.

But the thickos in charge would plan the work over the holiday season

 

[Rodcx500z]

How to deal with a burner

 

[JockyBrewer]

This is true. The same can be said for petrol if there isn't a petrol station on your regular route.

Let's look at history, because that's often a good guide as to possible future events.

Anyone remember when we all relied on candle light? No? Sure? I think probably a few of you do. Anyway, when gas became available, those that good afford it had gas pipes and gas mantles installed. A bit more convenient than candles as the gas was always there, whilst candles needed replacing and could be knocked over. Gas, of course could leak, but the advantages overcame resistance and gas became accepted.

Then electricity came along, and the same thing happened, those that could, installed it. Eventually, all new houses had it as standard, and old houses retro installed it.

Now, does anyone not see the future based on the above? No? Let me tell you that Part S of the building regulations requires all new build houses and conversions to have at least one residential type ie 7kW, charger.

If you don't have a drive/garage then it's a bit more difficult. However, if employers install chargers then you can charge there. This is already happening. I have a mate who was asking me about charging. He was toying with an EV but was worried about charging. Then his boss got an EV and had a charger installed at work,a basic 7kW. Then, when he saw the tax was so much lower for EVs than ICE (2% vs 8% I think) , he moved everyone with a company car on to EVs. Then realised they needed more chargers. So he had a couple of three phase chargers installed (21kW).these will charge most Ezvs in about 4 hours. As you're at work for 8 hours it solves the problem.

My mate asked if he could use the charger if he got an EV. Boss consulted with tax experts and came up with a solution so all employees with an EV could charge. ICE owners are not discriminated against though. Of the 15-20 employees, about 12 have moved to EVs. The others are thinking of it, and its generally accepted that they all will within a year or so.

Now, not all employers are so forward thinking. Some drivers will never have access to a personal charger, and conveniently placed public chargers will be needed, not just for them, but for drivers away from home.

Pavement chargers have been mentioned. There are various objects on pavements - lampposts, traffic lights, virgin media cabinets, BT cabinets, controllers for traffic lights, mobile phone masts and their cabinets. Any one of those objects could potentially be a charging point. Yes, there are technical and logistical difficulties to overcome. Let's not forget, traffic lights, pedestrian crossings etc were developed to manage the problems caused by the volume of traffic. No one ever thought when cars were in their infancy and affordable only by the wealthy that there would ever be so many cars on the road that their movement would need to be controlled. No one ever thought that there would need to be special high speed roads going from one end of the country to the other. But we accept their presence now without thinking.

There is an option that hasn't been mentioned : inductive charging. Similar to the way mobile phones charge wirelessly, the road has a charging plate on the road, the car is fitted with the other side of the circuit. When the car is parked over the charger, power is induced into the car. No wires. In Norway, they're very keen on EVs. Taxi ranks have inductive chargers fitted. The driver stops on the rank, accepts the offer to charge on his dashboard, the electronic handshake takes place, the car charges and his account is debited.. He doesn't even need to get out of the car. Its been suggested that similar chargers could be fitted on MWays here so cars charge as they go over the charger.

The number of available charging solutions is limited only by the imagination,but time is probably going to be the biggest contribution to any and all problems as the battery range will continue to increase and charging time will continue to decrease, and costs will decrease. Don't make the naive mistake that the problem that exists today, will still have the same significance next year, or still even exist next year. Because it won't.

There is one option you didn’t mention that I think is the real end game - self driving taxis that make car ownership optional.

Most cars spend 95%+ of their time parked up doing nothing. That’s not a good use of tens of thousands of pounds. What about if you just didn’t own a car, and instead hail one when required?

No need for parking, charging, insurance, maintenance etc, and the most expensive thing in a taxi is the driver, so they should be a lot cheaper than an Uber.

Cities and towns would benefit from this most of all - imagine all the space opened up on roads by not having cars parked on streets!

If you live in the countryside then you’ve got the space to own your own car, this idea is much more targeted at town and city dwellers where street parking is most common.

 

[kenstel]

Talking to EV owners it is already clear that the apps to find available chargers are making a big difference with range anxiety issues.

The pre heating function is classic - I didnt know that but it makes perfect sense. Probably knocks off a bit of range though !

i'm getting closer to buying one - the high cost and annoying gadgets like touchscreens (that are also very dangerous compared to buttons as the latter doesnt require the driver to look as much) are now the biggest barriers for me - and of course those are barriers to many modern ICE cars also....

Para 1: every public charging network has its own app to locate chargers, and pay through them. Or, there are several apps that list chargers from all networks Zapmap and ABRP (A Better Route Planner). With Zapmap you can also pay through the app. The Government also requires all fast chargers to accept contact less. Plug the car in, tap your card, charge, tap the card, unplug, drive. Just like the tube.

Para 2: yeah, he was GENUINELY shocked that EVs had heating. He walked to his wife saying "hey, that battery car has got heating. It defrosted itself. It's very hot inside though, I wouldn't want a car that warm though." I shook my head, he obviously hasn't grasped that the air con had a temperature setting, just like any other. Still, at least one misconception was corrected. He probably worked it out in the end. In terms of range, in my case, it takes about 1% of charge to fully defrost. In that instance temperature was about 4-6 degrees. It works the other way as well, if the car is parked in blazing sun, the air con will cook it to your chosen temperature.

Para 3: yes, touch screens, love them or hate them. But you have a touch screen phone, tablet, laptop... Oh, but there is also voice commands. In many cars most operations in the car can be initiated by voice. And the number of operations and the number of vehicles using voice control is growing.

Again, Technology won't stand still, and probably, at some point, the manufacturers will organically move towards standard commands, meaning if you know the command, you can use it in any car. It's a lot cheaper to develop a few lines of code to perform an operation eg increase temperature by X; navigate to work; switch on rear demist; than to put a temperature knob in the car, because once the code is written, it only needs to be copied to the master code for a vehicle model, whilst a physical switch needs to be installed in every car and every model. Code can be updated remotely over the air. Physical changes have to be done inside the car, when it's off the road.

To anyone thinking of a EV, install the 2 apps (or the others) I mention above and see how many chargers there are in your area/along the routes you travel. Choose a car, plan a route and see what the apps do. In ABRP, choose a challenge, a long route you've done, and see what charging requirements you'll need (remember they change for different models), make it challenging, say you have 10%charge and plan a journey of say, 250 miles and look at the options for charging.

Some models have these apps (or similar) built into the car, some satnavs incorporate these features also.

Just remember, most people commute less than 40 miles a day. Range anxiety is grossly over exaggerated imho. Chargers are popping up all over, and they're getting faster.

Maybe playing with the apps still show you that EV isn't 100% practical for you atm, in which case, have another look in 6 months. Everyone can manage with an EV with some adjustments. Some will need to adjust more then others.

 

[kenstel]

How to deal with a burner

I'm not sure what the point is, ever traveled by plane?

Or fossil car?

 

[kenstel]

I assume you don't live in a house?

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Just remember, most people commute less than 40 miles a day

This is a good point rarely mentioned, the average EV range on full charge is 211 miles so you do not need to charge it every day range anxiety doesn't need to be the major down side of owning a modern EV.

 

[kenstel]

There is one option you didn’t mention that I think is the real end game - self driving taxis that make car ownership optional.

Most cars spend 95%+ of their time parked up doing nothing. That’s not a good use of tens of thousands of pounds. What about if you just didn’t own a car, and instead hail one when required?

No need for parking, charging, insurance, maintenance etc, and the most expensive thing in a taxi is the driver, so they should be a lot cheaper than an Uber.

Cities and towns would benefit from this most of all - imagine all the space opened up on roads by not having cars parked on streets!

If you live in the countryside then you’ve got the space to own your own car, this idea is much more targeted at town and city dwellers where street parking is most common.

Well jockey the thread was about EVs not self driving cars, but your point is relevant and 100% correct.

Another point that reinforces yours, is hybrid and remote working. If people spend less time travelling to work, then car ownership is optional as you say, so car sharing schemes and taxi use become feasible and economic, with the burden of buying, operating and charging an EV being shared with others or transfered entirely to the taxi owner.

 

[Rodcx500z]

I'm not sure what the point is, ever traveled by plane?

View attachment 94051

View attachment 94052


View attachment 94053

Or fossil car?

View attachment 94054

View attachment 94055

I just see the funny side of everything and don't spend my life worrying about things after all life is a blink of an eye. Just embrace it and enjoy, the amount of times i here people say i have no time, my Grandad would ask me if i was worrying about anything and i would tell him stuff he would say have you got control of it i would say no, well don't worry about then it will sort it's self out, so to answer your question there is no point

 

[kenstel]

As long as I know Rod.

 

[Brew_DD2]

I just see the funny side of everything and don't spend my life worrying about things after all life is a blink of an eye. Just embrace it and enjoy, the amount of times i here people say i have no time, my Grandad would ask me if i was worrying about anything and i would tell him stuff he would say have you got control of it i would say no, well don't worry about then it will sort it's self out, so to answer your question there is no point

That is such a weak response to having your posts called out. If you can't or aren't willing to back up the stuff you post, then why bother? It doesn't show you in a good light.

 

[Rodcx500z]

That is such a weak response to having your posts called out. If you can't or aren't willing to back up the stuff you post, then why bother? It doesn't show you in a good light.

I don't care DD, because talking about sh-t you have no clue about is very shallow and guessing is not for me, anyway i wish you a very happy new year

 

[jof]

Oh & I used to work in software. I really dislike that modern cars of all power trains are sold on 'look at all this tech'.

The manufacturer's will put their best programmers on the safety critical components.
So you can guess the buggyness of the non critical items, hence all these over the air updates.

Did you know that all software in aircraft must be certified about its safety & how it fails. There are international standards that cover all levels from flight critical all the way down to entertainment systems.
I wonder if car software (electric & ICE) have similar standards they are written to.

 

[Alastair70]

@kenstel You are a genius. I’m posting this because one doesn’t come close to cutting it.
Do you think there’s mileage in a ‘Victims of Logical Fallacies’ sub-thread?

 

[kenstel]

@kenstel You are a genius. I’m posting this because one doesn’t come close to cutting it.
Do you think there’s mileage in a ‘Victims of Logical Fallacies’ sub-thread?

Thanks for the huge compliment. It would take the shine off the accolade if I admitted I haven't got a clue what you're talking about. So I won't. I'll just act very modest instead.

Your sub thread has potential Alastair, quite possibly, but it would need a new name. VLF will cause confusion with radio enthusiasts, and accidental transposition of the letters will associate it with some unpleasant people from your part of the world. And we dont want to inadvertently give those people any publicity.