Elderflower Champagne problem

[Barleylass]

Hi, I am new to home brewing and would be grateful for some advice. I recently started an Elderflower wine and everything seems to be going well so I decided to have a go at Elderflower Champagne seeing that I had plenty of elderflowers and have been struggling with the ferment. This is the recipe I have used
2 pt elderflowers no stems
10 litres boiling water
6.5lbs sugar
Juice and rind of 2.5 lemon
1 packet champagne yeast
2 teaspoons yeast nutrient

Put lemon rind and elderflower in bucket and pour over boiling water. Cover loosely and leave for 4 days, stirring occasionally. Strain through muslin, then add sugar, yeast, nutrient and lemon juice. Test with hydrometer. Ferment at room temperature, stirring first 4 days then leave to settle for 3 days or until bubbling has stopped. Test with hydrometer Strain through muslin again into demijohns and leave for at least 3 months.

First reading with hydrometer was 1.090. I added 1/2 the nutrient at the start and stirred daily and it was fizzing away. Day 3 I added the other half of nutrient and day 4 it was foaming. I stirred again and the next day nothing was happening. I left to day 7 and tested with hydrometer and was shocked to see it was 1.070. Temperature was 20-22c. I transferred to demijohns the next day as I was concerned about leaving too long in the bucket and after 24hrs nothing was happening and the yeast was settling. I decided to re pitch with more champagne yeast which I started in a jug, and 1/2 teaspoon of nutrient and it is bubbling slowly. Have I ruined it and anyone any idea why it is so sluggish?

 

[DavieC]

Hi, if its started bubbling again it should be ok as I'd take that as its got going again, was your yeast fresh?.

 

[kelper]

I seem to have more luck if I keep the temperature at 24 to 25 Celsius.

 

[Barleylass]

Hi, if its started bubbling again it should be ok as I'd take that as its got going again, was your yeast fresh?.

i have recently bought from Amazon as EC-118 but came in a different package which just said Lalvin Champagne, sparkling wine and cider and no use by date.

 

[Barleylass]

I seem to have more luck if I keep the temperature at 24 to 25 Celsius.

That might be worth trying if it stops again, just checked and it seems to be bubbling a bit quicker now.

 

[kelper]

And country wines often take weeks to ferment fully. Carry on as you are; good luck.

 

[Barleylass]

And country wines often take weeks to ferment fully. Carry on as you are; good luck.

Thanks, fingers crossed.

 

[Shirley Bassett]

Barleylass,

Your sugar content looks high to me. 6.5lbs is 2.94kg in 10 litres of water is 294g/litre. The recipe I’ve historically used, uses 160g/litre.

If I’ve calculated your alcohol content correctly then this would ferment to around 17%, perhaps others can confirm this. If I’m correct then I’m not sure that your yeast will survive at that high an alcohol content.

Did you add the lemon juice to your brew? The initial text doesn’t mention it. Others have advised me that the juice is needed to get a pH value on the acidic side of neutral.

For comparative purposes I use the following recipe:

20 litres of water,
3.2kg of sugar,
Juice and zest of 5 lemons,
20 Elderflower heads.
1tsp of yeast nutrient,
1tsp/sachet of cider yeast. Upper tolerance is 12% alcohol.

I dissolve the sugar in boiling water and then added the Elderflowers, lemon zest, juice and yeast nutrient. This is done in a 25 litre brewing bucket, to which I can fit a lid and airlock.

Finally when it has reached room temp I add the yeast sachet. I just scatter the yeast on the top of the liquid.

I ferment this at room temp, which in Aberdeenshire is around 15 to 18C.

Once a day for the first few days I gently stir the mixture, and refit the lid.

Coincidentally I put a brew on, on 4th July and I’m going to strain it today, as the airlock has slowed down to around 1 bubble every 2 mins

When it comes to straining the mixture I sterilise a second brewing vessel and a piece of muslin. I drape the muslin inside the brew vessel and then clip it to the edge of the bucket at 12 clock points with clothes pegs. I then pour the contents from one vessel to the next.

One year I just stretched the muslin over the second vessel and secured it. When I poured the liquid, some of it bounced off and went all over the floor.

Finally your method says once fermentation is finished put the end product in demijohns for 3 months. It doesn’t mention carbonating the brew to make it fizzy.

When my brew has finished fermenting I’m going to bottle it into 500ml and 1litre sterilised fizzy water plastic bottles.

1 batch prime at 15g/litre.

There are carbonation calculators I’m led to believe you need around 3 to 4 volumes for champagne.

Good luck.

 

[Tony Palmer]

Barleylass

I completely agree with above. Elderflower champagne can be difficult. At 160g/Litre or ~ 1064 SG you are in safe territory. The sugar at 294g/Litre is far too strong (cf 1112 SG) which causes sucrose inhibition i.e. prevents fermentation . There is something called the Dell formula which controls fermentation at higher gravity. The only solution is to dilute back down to about the 160g/Litre level. Then re yeast with fresh yeast (Lalvin EC1118 is one of the best). The only change I make is to add the Elderflowers to the cold must not to the hot boiled liquor.

 

[Barleylass]

Many thanks for your input. I looked at various recipes and they used 3lb sugar to 8 pints water so I converted it to 6.5 lb for 10 litres. Confusing myself now, I think I actually used 6lbs 5oz. The amount of lemons varied a lot in different recipes. The rind was added to the flowers initially and the lemon juice was added with the sugar and yeast. My start reading was 1.090 which I thought was ok? It is bubbling away now about once every 1 to 2 seconds so I think I will just wait it out for now and see how it goes. I ordered Lalvin EC-118 yeast but am a bit suspicious about the age as it didn’t come in the normal packaging and didn’t have a use by date. Hopefully it will ferment to dry then I will rack off a couple of times and add finings and Metabisulphite powder. Although I said leave at least 3 months I am going to leave 6 to 12 months. If it has fermented dry the idea is to put use 10g of sugar per 750ml bottle and a starter with 5g EC-118 yeast. If it hasn’t gone completely dry, I would appreciate some advice. I have proper champagne bottles and hollow stoppers and wires. I have used course sea salt and ice/water a few times for freezing before so am going to have a go at freezing the necks. I am sure I am making it too complicated and no doubt it will all go wrong but I really appreciate all the advice.

 

[Tony Palmer]

Dear Barleylass,

I have developed a further twist. My kitchen scales though they weigh in grammes are not very accurate so 10g/750 ml bottle can be a bit random (+/-2). Now I also make elderflower cordial (will give recipe if interested but again cold infusion) Now I have calculated the sugar in my cordial so 90 mls used as priming gives a more accurate dose and contributes more elderflower nose. I have never done the freeze method as its a lot more bother. Best of luck!

 

[DavieC]

Hi @Barleylass , with regards to the metabisulphate, I'm not sure you need to use this as it will inhibit the carbonation in the bottle, the carbonation co2 will protect the champagne in storage. Ta

 

[Barleylass]

Hi @Barleylass , with regards to the metabisulphate, I'm not sure you need to use this as it will inhibit the carbonation in the bottle, the carbonation co2 will protect the champagne in storage. Ta

Hi DavieC, Thanks for the advice. Is there a way to stabilise it to stop the chance of it going off without inhibiting the carbonation?

 

[Barleylass]

Hi DavieC, Thanks for the advice. Is there a way to stabilise it to stop the chance of it going off without inhibiting the carbonation?

Hi @Barleylass , with regards to the metabisulphate, I'm not sure you need to use this as it will inhibit the carbonation in the bottle, the carbonation co2 will protect the champagne in storage. Ta

Sorry, I didn’t read your post right first time. I see what you mean about the co2.

 

[DavieC]

The co2 in the bottle will hold off any oxygen in the bottle, should be fine.

 

[Shirley Bassett]

Barleylass,

Taken from BBC Good Food Recipe for Elderflower Champagne.

They use 1.8kg of sugar in 10 litres.

“If you drop the sugar to 1.6kg, it shouldn’t finish above 8% abv, at 2kg, 10%. Champagne yeast is tolerant up to at least 15%.“

I still think you’ve put too much sugar in at the start, unless it didn’t all dissolve.

I suspect it won’t ferment to dry, which for EC is normally sub 1.000

 

[johncrobinson]

Properly carbonated it wont go off

No need for sulphites at the carbonation stage.

 

[Barleylass]

Properly carbonated it wont go off

No need for sulphites at the carbonation stage.

Thanks

 

[IrishhRedEye]

Hey guys,

I seem to be having a similar problem as others have brought up of fermentation seeming to stall out. IG was 1.075 and now stalling at 1.040
Initially everything seemed amazing and was fizzing away and now has started to die down at day 11!
I began stirring it again at day 11 and fizzed quite a bit but now at day 14 it's obviously too slow dropping in Gravity.
Also Temp the entire time is ranging from 20-21C

I used the recipe from:
https://thebrewersdroop.co.uk/blogs...derflower-wine-elderflower-champagne-your-wayWhich the measurements are per 1 Gal (I made 3 gallons total);

1 Gal Water(Soft)
1 Kg of Brewers sugar(Dextrose)
1 Gram EC1118 Ordered on Amazon with no expiration date :[
1 Tsp Young's Yeast Nutrient
1 Tsp Citric Acid
1 Earl Grey Teabag/Gal (cold steeped in advance to add Tannins as my wine tannin didn't arrive in time)
And on day 3 of fermentation added 2 Pints Elderflowers

I still have 2 grams of the Yeast left and PLENTY of Nutrients..... The flowers are still in the Must. Anyone know the best coarse of action for my situation? Thank you.

 

[kelper]

Did you aerate it before adding the yeast?