Elder flower champagne - batch guidance required

[ThePhysicist]

JCR, is my understanding of your suggested method as follows: use a non-fermenting sugar for the sweetness and then prime the bottles (with real champagne bottles)? I know earlier you said you did all of yours dry, but IMO the Elderflower wine is significantly better with some sweetness therefore dry is not an option. I've still got 10 liters sat in the garage dry that knocks your socks off

I must admit, I am apprehensive about pasteurization, I'm sure it's relatively safe when done correctly... but accidents do happen.

 

[Drunkula]

I don't know what carbonation it would be at with the feet bulging, but I've read a few times that coke is carbonated about 3 volumes.

I found a few more videos of people pasteurising cider and ginger beer. It really wouldn't bother me but I pressure fry chicken and I'm dead inside.

I'd just advise putting a trivet or plate in the bottom of the pan so the bottles aren't touching the bottom, then a towel over the top of the bottles so if one did pop the glass wouldn't fly anywhere.

Two threads to have a look at - one guy BOILS the bottles as part of an experiment containing club soda which is about 4 vols of co2. After 5 minutes one goes boom. It was about testing the extremes and the rest is about not doing that.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/...t-in-bottle-pasteurization-experiment.121101/
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/another-way-to-bottle-pasturize.315499/

Aaaand back to the wide-eyed panic. This is awesome reading.
https://kb.osu.edu/bitstream/handle/1811/68448/OSLJ_V24N3_0516.pdf

I love my elderflower champagne and just let it brew dry. If anyone wants it sweeter I add elderflower cordial to it. I've got tons.

 

[johncrobinson]

Yes I know i go on about bottle bombs Well back in the 80s my mates wife picked up a bottle of pop for the kids from a supermarket shelf,As she was putting it into her basket the bottle exploded taking out one eye and cutting her face badly
she could not live with the disfigurement and a month or so later commited suicide.
An extreme example i grant you but i saw her she really looked a mess.

I suppose there is carbonation and then there is champagne levels of carbonation.All i can really say from my own experiance is proper champagne bottles with the afore mentioned sparkle tops worked for me.
To be safe plastic bottles would not represent the same hazard but i dont think they would withstand boiling water and without pasturisation the yeast would tend to eat the sugar anyway.
Unless you way upped the alcohol as they do with champagne.

I found a bottle of youngs non fermentable sweetner in my brewing cabinet the other day and had a taste,Have to say not bad not bad at all. Its saccharin based with glycerol.

TBH i cant see an easy answer to the carbonation/sweetening conundrum in bottles.
A brew barrel would be safe but only get you to about 10psi.

 

[ThePhysicist]

Thanks for the information Drunkula, it's taken me a while to get back to this with everything that's going on right now!
Hmmm I'm really on the fence about which way to go haha, but I'll update this page with what I decide to do for completeness

Question: I've got 4/5 of the dry stuff from last season in the garage, do you think it's ok to drink? The recipe said it would be good for 6months, this is getting on for 12. It is quite strong though so I'm guessing it will be fine?

Sorry to hear about your friend's wife, JCR. A rare occurrence but it goes to show you cannot be too careful. It's not the pasturozation process I'm worried about, it's after when one becomes complacent and isn't taking full safety precautions.

Thanks again guys, appreciate the help

 

[johncrobinson]

interesting you bring the after in to it.So true so true.
Alohoholic bevys have a good sell by date so dont worry there.
I think it must be herd imuenity as a lot of experimental booze has gone down my ALEmentry canal without problems.

 

[johncrobinson]

Its a long time ago since she died.
Cant belive how the young pre-teens kids coped they really looked after the dad and visitors like me.
I remember holding hands to get them across the road.!!!!
A few months later they were making meals and beds for visitors.

 

[johncrobinson]

As far as booze is concerned if it tastes ok drink it you have countless generations of "heard imunity"

 

[ThePhysicist]

I don't know what carbonation it would be at with the feet bulging, but I've read a few times that coke is carbonated about 3 volumes.

I found a few more videos of people pasteurising cider and ginger beer. It really wouldn't bother me but I pressure fry chicken and I'm dead inside.

I'd just advise putting a trivet or plate in the bottom of the pan so the bottles aren't touching the bottom, then a towel over the top of the bottles so if one did pop the glass wouldn't fly anywhere.

Two threads to have a look at - one guy BOILS the bottles as part of an experiment containing club soda which is about 4 vols of co2. After 5 minutes one goes boom. It was about testing the extremes and the rest is about not doing that.
Results of my first in-bottle pasteurization experiment!
Another way to bottle pasturize

Aaaand back to the wide-eyed panic. This is awesome reading.
https://kb.osu.edu/bitstream/handle/1811/68448/OSLJ_V24N3_0516.pdf

I love my elderflower champagne and just let it brew dry. If anyone wants it sweeter I add elderflower cordial to it. I've got tons.

I think this year I'll brew a decent amount and just let it run dry... I'll enjoy the evolving sweetness and once it becomes too dry I'll just add elderflower cordial.

You mentioned you have tons of the stuff... I'm assuming you make it yourself: how long does it last and does it have any storage requirements??

All the best

 

[An Ankoù]

One way round this might be to keep adding sugar until the alcohol tolerance of the yeast is very nearly reached and then bottle in champagne bottles fitted with a clip-on swing top. This way the pressure can be released regularly while the wine is gassing up and the excess sugar will remain to sweeten the wine, but won't ferment very quickly at all.
Is should point out that I've never tried this, as bone dry is my preference, too, but I think it's the way I would go if I wanted to produce a sweeter wine.

 

[ThePhysicist]

One way round this might be to keep adding sugar until the alcohol tolerance of the yeast is very nearly reached and then bottle in champagne bottles fitted with a clip-on swing top. This way the pressure can be released regularly while the wine is gassing up and the excess sugar will remain to sweeten the wine, but won't ferment very quickly at all.
Is should point out that I've never tried this, as bone dry is my preference, too, but I think it's the way I would go if I wanted to produce a sweeter wine.

I have considered this, but I read at the yeast alcohol limits have a large uncertainty, is this true?

I wonder if there are yeasts which stop fermentation around 6/7% alcohol . I find the elderflower flavour quote delicate and as the fermentation continued the alcohol flavour begins to dominate. However, I've never tested th alcohol levels so I'm not sure where the effect begins to take place.

 

[An Ankoù]

I have considered this, but I read at the yeast alcohol limits have a large uncertainty, is this true?

I wonder if there are yeasts which stop fermentation around 6/7% alcohol . I find the elderflower flavour quote delicate and as the fermentation continued the alcohol flavour begins to dominate. However, I've never tested th alcohol levels so I'm not sure where the effect begins to take place.

Elderflower is one of the few wines I make. Mine is effectively a rhubarb wine using Berry's recipe, which relies on the sugar sucking the juice out of the rhubarb by osmosis, and then flavoured with 50g dried elderflowers per gallon in the secondary fermentation vessel. There's no fermentable sugar left in the wine and the bottles have to be primed, but the wine doesn't taste dry. Without the elderflowers it tastes a bit like a hock. I think it turns out around 11-12 percent abv.

 

[johncrobinson]

Yes it is true there is a large uncertainty.

 

[An Ankoù]

I have considered this, but I read at the yeast alcohol limits have a large uncertainty, is this true?

It's certainly true with beer yeast. The amount of nutrient available to the yeast also has a big effect. That's why I recommended using swingtop bottles or fitting a swingtop to a champagne bottle so that you can vent the bottles from time to time.

 

[An Ankoù]

Just had a thought. Might be a good one or it might be ****. If we want to sweeten beer, we add lactose because beer yeasts won't ferment it. I don't know if it's worth trying adding a couple of teaspoons of lactose to a bottle of wine to see what it tastes like. Idon't know if wine yeast will ferment lactose, if so you could try using a clean-fermenting beer yeast such as Safale US-05. Just a thought.

 

[Tony Palmer]

I use Sucralose tablets (smallest ones called Splenda) as non fermentable sweetener

 

[ThePhysicist]

I use Sucralose tablets (smallest ones called Splenda) as non fermentable sweetener

How do you find the flavour?

 

[johncrobinson]

Lactose is unfermentable even to wine yeast.
So no worries there.

It does seem to be quite a common problem on this forum "How to sweeten sparkling wine/cider"

Bearing in mind it would be wrong of me to give newcomers dangerous advise,It seems some form of artificial sweetner is the safest way forward even if not totally "organic".

 

[ThePhysicist]

Lactose is unfermentable even to wine yeast.
So no worries there.

It does seem to be quite a common problem on this forum "How to sweeten sparkling wine/cider"

Bearing in mind it would be wrong of me to give newcomers dangerous advise,It seems some form of artificial sweetner is the safest way forward even if not totally "organic".

Yeah, I'm planning on getting a keg at some point in the future and putting the sparkle in after I stop fermentation with a Camden tablet... But this year I think I'll just let it run sweet to dry and enjoy all the stages

 

[Tony Palmer]

Sucralose has a near identical flavour profile to nature's sugar. So addition is up to personal taste. Generally I use 4 pills per Champagne bottle. Technique is not new as cider makers were adding saccharin to their dry brews years ago, but saccharin has some taste/flavour defects.

 

[Ebob01]

You could always just make it a bit stronger then top off the glass with lemonade at serving.

Although after the sugar tax was introduced good luck finding lemonade without added sweetener and reduced sugar.

As others have said the other option is non fermentable sugar, lactose is an option but it's a bit of a pain as it's not very sweet so you have to add quite a lot. Sorbitol and Xylitol are also an option but drink too much and you may find yourself running to the loo.

I think I am going to just chuck a few Splenda tablets in mine