Draught ale from a bottle

[MikeW]

I always brew using bottles, I have given up with cheap plastic kegs leaking and do not have the space for them either
My question as a Newbie is that I am happy to drink sparkling Larger, a 500 ml swing top primed with 1/2 teaspoon of granulated sugar, but when I brew Stout or Ale I prefer a less fizzy "draught" brew.
Not understanding the chemistry happening during the priming-conditioning stage I was asking can I reduce the sugar I have been priming with or even leave it all out altogether?

Many thanks, Mike

 

[Sadfield]

Yes, just use less sugar. Try half the amount next time and see how you get on.

 

[RichK]

You can definitely reduce it if you want less carbonation. I've never tried significantly reducing it, so no idea what the minimum acceptable would be. That's probably a personal decision. Maybe one for you to experiment with?

 

[Sandimas]

I'm like you, try a quarter of a teaspoon per bottle, you'll get less fizz.

Regarding kegs, I too gave up on the plastic ones but have recently gone over to 10L mini-kegs using little CO2 cartridges like these from Dark Farm. If you keep the pressure between 5-10 PSI your ale stays uncarbonated, just like a gravity-fed real ale. I've always got 2 of these on the go at any one time, not cheap but then not many hobbies are - been really pleased with mine. https://www.darkfarm.co.uk/keg-equipment/

 

[Cwrw666]

I find half a teaspoon works for me. Definitely not fizzy though it's more than hand pumped ale.
For some reason most commercial bottles are ridiculously gassy. Must be trying to compete with coca cola.

 

[Ben034]

Definitely try reducing the sugar first. Also, pouring a bottle into a jug first, knocks a lot of carbonation out and somewhat replicates a hand pulled type pint.

 

[foxy]

I always brew using bottles, I have given up with cheap plastic kegs leaking and do not have the space for them either
My question as a Newbie is that I am happy to drink sparkling Larger, a 500 ml swing top primed with 1/2 teaspoon of granulated sugar, but when I brew Stout or Ale I prefer a less fizzy "draught" brew.
Not understanding the chemistry happening during the priming-conditioning stage I was asking can I reduce the sugar I have been priming with or even leave it all out altogether?

Many thanks, Mike

My average is 1 gram of sugar per long neck (700 ml bottle) a tea spoon is 4 gram. I cold crash so estimate bottling temperature is around 4 C.

 

[CD]

Definitely try reducing the sugar first. Also, pouring a bottle into a jug first, knocks a lot of carbonation out and somewhat replicates a hand pulled type pint.

That’s the only way I can drink bottled beer. You need a large glass jug, and as long as the beer isn’t bottle conditioned, tip the contents in from about a foot, and leave it for 3 minutes minimum before transferring it to your glass. For bottled-conditioned beers pour carefully into a glass first, stopping before any yeast comes out, then tip that into your jug.

 

[MikeW]

That’s the only way I can drink bottled beer. You need a large glass jug, and as long as the beer isn’t bottle conditioned, tip the contents in from about a foot, and leave it for 3 minutes minimum before transferring it to your glass. For bottled-conditioned beers pour carefully into a glass first, stopping before any yeast comes out, then tip that into your jug.

Thanks, are we saying it's OK the bottle without priming (not bottled conditioned) just need to confirm the jargon
As previously suggested it looks like I should conduct trials with a reduced sugar amount of 1 gram and some bottles with none.
Thanks everyone for their imput.

 

[CD]

I was talking about commercial bottles of beer, not home brewed.

 

[Sadfield]

Thanks, are we saying it's OK the bottle without priming (not bottled conditioned)

No.

Also, ignore this nonsense about decanting into jugs. It's an unnecessary process to deal with beers that are initially over-carbonated to the drinkers preference. Akin to heating your house to 30c, then opening the windows to cool it down to feel comfortable.

You need to experiment with the level of sugar required to get the correct level of carbonation that you prefer. If you really want to dial it in there are formula and online calculators, but a little trial and error adjusting the sugar level is a simple way to do it.

 

[bobukbrewer]

Pour home brewed beer into a jug, and leave for an hour. A bit like you do with red wine. Plan ahead. Cover with muslin or similar in the summer as those little pesky vinegar flies love it.

 

[RichK]

Be interested to hear how you get on with reducing carbonation. I think I might give it a go myself now. ☺ I often get the comment of 'you want a flake with that?' so I've probably got some scope for reduction. I usually work to 4g/litre so will try 3g.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I am happy to drink sparkling Larger, a 500 ml swing top primed with 1/2 teaspoon of granulated sugar, but when I brew Stout or Ale I prefer a less fizzy "draught" brew.
Not understanding the chemistry happening during the priming-conditioning stage

To a first approximation - the chemistry is that bubbles are proportional to sugar, so halve the sugar and you halve the bubbles.

In fact it's a bit more complicated than that, as up to half the final carbonation comes from CO2 left dissolved in the beer from the main fermentation. The solubility of CO2 varies with temperature, so a lager might end fermentation with 1.3 volumes of CO2 but a kveik fermentation might end up with just 0.7 vol. Carbonation is expressed in "volumes of CO2" relative to the volume of liquid, so 1 litre of CO2 in 1 litre of beer is "1 volume", 2 litres of CO2 in 1 litre of beer is "2 volumes", or 2vol for short and so on.

So if you've fermented an ale at 20°C and not sloshed it around too much or left it too long after fermentation, you might be starting at 0.8vol. Then adding the following grams of white table sugar per litre will get you the following carbonation :

1g/l -> 1.1vol
2g/l -> 1.3vol
3g/l -> 1.6vol
4g/l -> 1.8vol
5g/l -> 2.1vol
6g/l -> 2.3vol

Different sugars have different fermentabilities so will need more or less - you need about 50% more DME or honey than white sugar. As per above, you might have 0.5vol more CO2 already in the beer from a lager fermentation (if you bottle at lager-fermentation temperatures, it's the maximum temperature before bottling that matters), and a bit less from a kveik fermentation.

Cask beer in the real world can be as low as 1 vol once it's been tapped a while, but personally I like around 1.7-1.8 vol for British beers. I add a bit more sugar to 330ml bottles than 500ml bottles as the extra headspace:volume sucks up a bit of carbonation. Lagers are typically around 2.5vol, wheat beers and some Belgians can be 3.5vol or more (and need special strong bottles to cope - bottle bombs are a bad idea).

See priming calculators like this one if you're eg using different sugars :
https://www.brewersfriend.com/beer-priming-calculator/

 

[Ben034]

No.

Also, ignore this nonsense about decanting into jugs. It's an unnecessary process to deal with beers that are initially over-carbonated to the drinkers preference. Akin to heating your house to 30c, then opening the windows to cool it down to feel comfortable.

You need to experiment with the level of sugar required to get the correct level of carbonation that you prefer. If you really want to dial it in there are formula and online calculators, but a little trial and error adjusting the sugar level is a simple way to do it.

As said, reducing the sugar used to prime is the obvious answer. That said, I personally find that a bottle conditioned beer carbonated to 1-1.5vols vs one carbonated to around 2 vols and then decanted into a jug offers a different experience. My preference for English style beers is the latter - I find it helps keep a nice head, you can pour it into a couple of glasses in one go from the jug if using a big bottle without disturbing the yeast at the bottom. I also serve it into a warm jug to warm it up if the shed is particularly cold. Also helps with the inevitable over carbonated beer that some yeast strains produce when storing in bottles for a long time.

 

[Sadfield]

As said, reducing the sugar used to prime is the obvious answer. That said, I personally find that a bottle conditioned beer carbonated to 1-1.5vols vs one carbonated to around 2 vols and then decanted into a jug offers a different experience.

Agree, it's a different experience. However, it's all about aerating the beer at dispense, and the jug can perform this function, but it's often just cited purely as a work around for over-carbonation (I suspect in relation to using carbonation drops or old school brewing book advice on teaspoons of sugar). The more elegant solution is to have beers carbonated correctly to allow pouring from the bottle with enough vigour to aerate the beer. I think it's often missed that this is essentially what a hand pull does, rapidly filling a pint glass in 2 or 3 draws. The worse thing to do with any beer is slowly dribble it down the side of a glass.

 

[Justin Dean]

carbonation calculator on web gives you all the advice you need, simple