Disheartening return to homebrew

[giraffe]

I have returned to home-brewing after a few years break. I used to live in a flat so didn't have the space for a brew fridge or AG. Looking at my notes I brewed around 20 kits and a few extract brews. I ultimately stopped because most of what I brewed tasted pretty bad, with the odd success here and there. Fast forward to now, I have now moved to a house complete with a man cave perfect for brewing. So I got all setup with a brew fridge and cornies and thought I would give it another shot.

First brew, I found a very old (3 year out of date) Geordie bitter. Brewed with temp control and kegged, all seemed to go well but after 3 months in the keg it still tasted pretty bad, homebrew twang. Although it was nice and clear and had good head retention. Put the taste down to the fact it was old so ordered a Wherry as I had success with that kit previously. So brewed that up, all went well. Kegged for about a month and it doesn't taste great either, again homebrew twang which I would describe as a yeasty sort of taste and smell.

So I am at a bit of a loss, I thought having temp control would solve my previous issues. I have also done a couple of small 1 gallon AG brews. They have turned out much better and drinkable in a very short time. It seems like AG is calling but I don't really have the time or money for equipment yet. It the short term I would like kits to work out. On a plus point I also did a Young's APA which has only been kegged a week but seems promising.

Any tips?

 

[Covrich]

Difficult to say but dont't give up

You have clearly had some success with the AG and the twang you have had was probably beyond your control. I think with kit twang you can be unlucky sometimes. A lot of people have praised Wherry , never made it myself but my dad did and well I thought it had the twang.

I do think by the sounds of it you know AG will give you the best results but perhaps maybe look at improving kit brews might be the best option in the short term. The youngs kits which you have done are very good so perhaps stick with them or maybe look to pimp up other kits with dry hops ect.

 

[giraffe]

I was going to do a couple more kits and see how that goes. I find the hardest thing with kits is the waiting.. and hoping it will come good. I find it worse being in a keg as I keep sampling to see if it had improved. Yeah the Young's kits seem good, a taste after a week was not bad so hopefully this one will be drinkable. I am sure I will end up doing AG, was looking at the robobrew but it could be hard to hide from the wife.

 

[foxy]

Have you checked the inside of your keg's for any oxidising on the metal?

 

[An Ankoù]

I've read somewhere that for recipes based on malt extract (and kits are just hopped malt extract) the extract should be as fresh as possible otherwise it'll have a "twang". Your Wherry kit might have been within its sell-by date, but the sell-by might be a year or more after canning.
Why not try using all-extract recipes instead of kits, and get your extract from a reputable supplier like Malt Miller or Brew UK or the Homebrew Co. Worth a try, and more fun.

 

[Sandimas]

Why not try using all-extract recipes instead of kits, and get your extract from a reputable supplier like Malt Miller or Brew UK or the Homebrew Co. Worth a try, and more fun.

+1 a halfway house between kits and AG and great quality beer.

Also consider bottling, I've not had a lot of luck with my 3 kegs recently and can't get to the bottom of it, the beer degrades but isn't infected. Kegs can be a right PITA in my experience.

 

[chesters-mild]

It could be your water, soft or hard can make a difference. Also do you treat your water with a campden tablet to remove chlorine etc.
Cheers

 

[peebee]

Don't have the time or money for AG? Let me put that straight for you:

I've been brewing AG for 45 years now. Recently I built myself a swish "3 vessel" 65L brewery - expensive! It's having a few modifications so I obtain a Grainfather to tidy me over and later allow me to brew small batches and trial brews - expensive. So what am I doing with all this flashy kit and experience? Trying to emulate a "brew-in-a-bag" (BIAB) setup. And I'm doing it because BIAB is so fast and a lot less work. From your point of view BIAB is pretty cheap! All you need is the bag! Presuming you have a boiler, thermometer and fermenter.

BIAB was developed by them down under (not invented, I was mashing in bags in the 80s, but was seriously missing a trick). BIAB is really a "full boil-volume mash" technique, i.e. no sparging. As such, the size of brew you can do is limited by your boiler size (I've just struggled to get a 21L batch of 5+% ABV beer out of a 30L Grainfather) but you can just top up these stronger batches and mash in a bit less than "full boil-volume" (or "dunk sparge", but you are actually not missing out on much by not sparging). BIAB is often dismissed as a "novices" technique - then why am I doing it?

 

[giraffe]

Thanks for the replies, some more things for me to try. I checked the inside of the kegs, took apart and gave a good clean before use. I assume oxidisation in a keg would be rust?

I used to bottle, but it just takes so long. I also have a couple of bottles from the same batch as the keg and they taste the same.

Water is pretty hard here (Essex) and not the best tasting, probably because it's so flat. I always put in a campden tablet which does help. I have previously tried bottled water, which I might try again but don't like the thought of all that plastic wastage.

BIAB does sound like something I should try. I don't have a large boiler at the moment. Can you use anything like a tea urn? I have a 11L or so pan I used for my small AG with a dunk sparge. Are there any good guides on BIAB?

 

[Attwell]

I know how you feel mate I'm obsessed with brewing, haven't done to many brews but have done some, read countless amounts of books & just love beer in general & my brews aren't coming up to scratch, it's very disheartening..

 

[Cwrw666]

I'd go for BIAB if I were you. Only substantial cost is a boiler - mine cost about £80 four years ago - but that's only the cost of about 4 2-can beer kits and once you get started with AG brews can be really very cheap, much cheaper than kits so you'll break even in no time.
And you don't get homebrew twang with AG. In 4 years I've done about 70 brews, some were dissapointing, sure, but none were undrinkable and most were at least as good as the best you'll buy in a pub.

 

[peebee]

... Are there any good guides on BIAB?

Searching this forum ("BIAB guide") might come up with a few? I can't recommend any because I've never used any, but there must be guides if you ask the right people? Put out another question for BIAB guides on this forum.

(EDIT: BIAB really is a "1 vessel" brewing technique. Conventionally used Grainfathers, Robobrews, etc. only pretend to be; you still need a separate vessel to heat sparge water (would be referred to as a "HLT" in any other setup). Some BIAB guides might suggest sparging; just remember you don't have to!)

 

[Richie_asg1]

I'm a novice so just ignore me, but can I ask what you are using to disinfect equipment and sugar type for carbonation?
I had a batch that tasted a bit off and put that down to a chlorine based steriliser, and your campden tablets could also give problems.
I switched to a no-rinse steriliser and seems to leave tanks smelling fresher.
Using white bleached sugar can give problems too. I use Billingtons natural granulated sugar and seems to turn out ok.
I also seem to keep fermentation temps on the low end, but that's because the boiler cupboard is pretty cool.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

BIAB does sound like something I should try. I don't have a large boiler at the moment. Can you use anything like a tea urn? I have a 11L or so pan I used for my small AG with a dunk sparge. Are there any good guides on BIAB?

This is one of the best - https://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/threads/another-biab-guide-for-beginners-ish.49766/

.

 

[The Baron]

BIAB is the cheapest way to go If you buy a boiler for under a £100 and a bag thats all you will need on top of what you have already got also the boiler can be used as a sparge vessel if you upgrade in the future to a 3 vessel or 1 pot system so it is not money wasted

 

[Glitchy]

Thanks for the replies, some more things for me to try. I checked the inside of the kegs, took apart and gave a good clean before use. I assume oxidisation in a keg would be rust?

I used to bottle, but it just takes so long. I also have a couple of bottles from the same batch as the keg and they taste the same.

Water is pretty hard here (Essex) and not the best tasting, probably because it's so flat. I always put in a campden tablet which does help. I have previously tried bottled water, which I might try again but don't like the thought of all that plastic wastage.

BIAB does sound like something I should try. I don't have a large boiler at the moment. Can you use anything like a tea urn? I have a 11L or so pan I used for my small AG with a dunk sparge. Are there any good guides on BIAB?

The homebrew company do a BIAB starter kit for £82. Comes with a peco boiler, wort chiller, bag and an all grain kit of your choice. I went for this and it is a completely different taste to the kits, my first all grain pale ale even converted a die hard lager drinker to try new beers!

 

[samale]

I used to do kits but after a friend gave me a few samples of his all grain beer I was converted. The taste difference is incomparable.

 

[cushyno]

The homebrew company do a BIAB starter kit for £82. Comes with a peco boiler, wort chiller, bag and an all grain kit of your choice. I went for this and it is a completely different taste to the kits, my first all grain pale ale even converted a die hard lager drinker to try new beers!

I second this. You don't need much more than the HBC starter kit to get great results. Over 10 brews done on this kit and it's so simple and predictable so long as you are attentive to mash temperature, decent yeast and water quality.

 

[giraffe]

what you are using to disinfect equipment and sugar type for carbonation?
I had a batch that tasted a bit off and put that down to a chlorine based steriliser, and your campden tablets could also give problems.

I use starsan to sterilise and force carbonate. Have you had problems with campden tablets? What problems did it cause?

I think BIAB sounds like the next step, I did wonder about sparging with robobrew setups. @Chippy_Tea thanks for the link I will take a look. I did see the peco boiler mentioned in another thread, think I might have to invest. They also have corny kegs for cheap so might need another of those too

 

[An Ankoù]

This is all getting a bit confused. Campden tablets are used to take chlorine and chloramine out of drinking water. Half a tablet will treat more than 10 gallons. Using an excess will just add a bit of sulphate during the boil. Chlorine-based cleaners and sterilisers, ie bleach, Milton etc need to be neutralised before coming into contact with your malt and hops, but a bit of a tablet or the most meagre pinch of sodium metabisulphite will take care of that. Don't really see the point of Starsan- no doubt it works, but other things work, too, at a fraction of the price. It's well to remember that home brewing is a potential market like any other and people are looking to flog their overpriced stuff to us just like the rest of the Arthur Dailys are in the wider world.
Campden tablets are just compressed sodium metabisulphite, by the way, which is a source of sulphur dioxide which acts as a sterilising agent and an antioxidant. Here's a useful link:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Campden_tablet