DIPA Failure - Wheat/Oats?

[Kye]

Hi all,

Wondering if anyone else has experienced very low mash efficiency when using oats and/or wheat and come up with any solution. I brewed a Verdant style DIPA today which I was hoping to be an 8% brew with an OG of 1.079. I've had previous poor efficiency when using oats and wheat but this one is off the scale. As a comparison, whenever I brew a more simple grain bill of say a lager or IPA without oats or wheat, I hit my numbers bang on. I'm using the Brewzilla 3.1.1.

Here is the grain bill as input to Brewfather:

Crisp Extra Pale MO - 4.2kg
Rolled Oats - 0.6kg
Crisp Wheat Malt (from Get 'er Brewed) - 0.6kg
Carapils - 0.2kg
Acidulated Malt 0.15kg
+ some rice husks to aid mash recirculation

This is with a total water volume of 25.5litres (c21l mash/c4l sparge) aiming for 15l in the fermenter (which I achieved).

After mashing for around 70 minutes at 64degC (with a couple of stirs) with a mash out at 75degC of 15 mins (plus a 5 min ramp for the temp increase to 75degC), smaller sparge than recipe as I achieved the pre boil volume, and then a 60 min boil, my post boil gravity was c. 1.055 (vs 1.079 in the recipe!). I added 500g of dextrose which brought it up to an OG of 1.064 but still 15 pts off target, so I'll be looking at a beer of 6.4% instead of 8%, assuming attenuation as per recipe.

I have similar results when using Crisp Torrified Oats as opposed to the simple rolled oats I used in this recipe.

Interestingly when I remove the oats and wheat from the Brewfather recipe the ABV% and OG drop down to nearly what I achieved today, which could suggest I'm getting no fermentable sugars from the oats or wheat.

I guess the stats on fermentable sugars in Brewfather could be off, meaning I need to add a lot more oats and wheat, but given the numbers I'm getting I'd need a huge amount in the grain bill to make up for the missing gravity points.

Interested to hear if anyone else has experienced similar, and if others are not having this issue, what oats and wheat are you using and from what supplier?

Sorry for the long message and thank you to anyone who reads it and can share any similar issues and/or solutions!

Cheers

 

[Obadiah Boondoggle]

Hi all,

Wondering if anyone else has experienced very low mash efficiency when using oats and/or wheat and come up with any solution. I brewed a Verdant style DIPA today which I was hoping to be an 8% brew with an OG of 1.079. I've had previous poor efficiency when using oats and wheat but this one is off the scale. As a comparison, whenever I brew a more simple grain bill of say a lager or IPA without oats or wheat, I hit my numbers bang on. I'm using the Brewzilla 3.1.1.

Here is the grain bill as input to Brewfather:

Crisp Extra Pale MO - 4.2kg
Rolled Oats - 0.6kg
Crisp Wheat Malt (from Get 'er Brewed) - 0.6kg
Carapils - 0.2kg
Acidulated Malt 0.15kg
+ some rice husks to aid mash recirculation

This is with a total water volume of 25.5litres (c21l mash/c4l sparge) aiming for 15l in the fermenter (which I achieved).

After mashing for around 70 minutes at 64degC (with a couple of stirs) with a mash out at 75degC of 15 mins (plus a 5 min ramp for the temp increase to 75degC), smaller sparge than recipe as I achieved the pre boil volume, and then a 60 min boil, my post boil gravity was c. 1.055 (vs 1.079 in the recipe!). I added 500g of dextrose which brought it up to an OG of 1.064 but still 15 pts off target, so I'll be looking at a beer of 6.4% instead of 8%, assuming attenuation as per recipe.

I have similar results when using Crisp Torrified Oats as opposed to the simple rolled oats I used in this recipe.

Interestingly when I remove the oats and wheat from the Brewfather recipe the ABV% and OG drop down to nearly what I achieved today, which could suggest I'm getting no fermentable sugars from the oats or wheat.

I guess the stats on fermentable sugars in Brewfather could be off, meaning I need to add a lot more oats and wheat, but given the numbers I'm getting I'd need a huge amount in the grain bill to make up for the missing gravity points.

Interested to hear if anyone else has experienced similar, and if others are not having this issue, what oats and wheat are you using and from what supplier?

Sorry for the long message and thank you to anyone who reads it and can share any similar issues and/or solutions!

Cheers

I have just put your recipe in my bf and this is the result

Obviously I don't know exactly which brands of malt and adjuncts you are using but it does come out lower

Is 64C perhaps a bit low to extract the sugars from wheat & oats?

 

[foxy]

Hi all,

Wondering if anyone else has experienced very low mash efficiency when using oats and/or wheat and come up with any solution. I brewed a Verdant style DIPA today which I was hoping to be an 8% brew with an OG of 1.079. I've had previous poor efficiency when using oats and wheat but this one is off the scale. As a comparison, whenever I brew a more simple grain bill of say a lager or IPA without oats or wheat, I hit my numbers bang on. I'm using the Brewzilla 3.1.1.

Here is the grain bill as input to Brewfather:

Crisp Extra Pale MO - 4.2kg
Rolled Oats - 0.6kg
Crisp Wheat Malt (from Get 'er Brewed) - 0.6kg
Carapils - 0.2kg
Acidulated Malt 0.15kg
+ some rice husks to aid mash recirculation

This is with a total water volume of 25.5litres (c21l mash/c4l sparge) aiming for 15l in the fermenter (which I achieved).

After mashing for around 70 minutes at 64degC (with a couple of stirs) with a mash out at 75degC of 15 mins (plus a 5 min ramp for the temp increase to 75degC), smaller sparge than recipe as I achieved the pre boil volume, and then a 60 min boil, my post boil gravity was c. 1.055 (vs 1.079 in the recipe!). I added 500g of dextrose which brought it up to an OG of 1.064 but still 15 pts off target, so I'll be looking at a beer of 6.4% instead of 8%, assuming attenuation as per recipe.

I have similar results when using Crisp Torrified Oats as opposed to the simple rolled oats I used in this recipe.

Interestingly when I remove the oats and wheat from the Brewfather recipe the ABV% and OG drop down to nearly what I achieved today, which could suggest I'm getting no fermentable sugars from the oats or wheat.

I guess the stats on fermentable sugars in Brewfather could be off, meaning I need to add a lot more oats and wheat, but given the numbers I'm getting I'd need a huge amount in the grain bill to make up for the missing gravity points.

Interested to hear if anyone else has experienced similar, and if others are not having this issue, what oats and wheat are you using and from what supplier?

Sorry for the long message and thank you to anyone who reads it and can share any similar issues and/or solutions!

Cheers

I would have mashed for one hour at 64C for the beta amylase and 30 mins at 68C for the alpha amylase. BUT the first thing I would do is check the accuracy of your temperature read out. Just check the temperature next to the probe, anywhere else it will be all over the place like a mad womans ****. You can then calibrate it if it isn't correct. Stir the mash to try and keep the temperature as even as possible, not continuously just every 10 to 15 mins.

 

[Oneflewover]

I have just put your recipe in my bf and this is the result

View attachment 56006

Obviously I don't know exactly which brands of malt and adjuncts you are using but it does come out lower

Is 64C perhaps a bit low to extract the sugars from wheat & oats?

Think he's looking at a 15l batch?

 

[Oneflewover]

Was the wheat pre-crushed? Were the oats simply rolled or were they cut? Do you know what your mash pH was?

 

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

Touch wood I’ve not had any problems with extraction efficiency using similar proportions of rolled oats and/or torrified wheat.in any case you’re not really using enough of them to make a big difference.

With 4.2kg of base malt I’d expect a higher OG so I’d either look at that (have you used this type before?) or factors in the mash itself such as temperature (more on that below) or poor water distribution. My stab-in-the-dark guess would be the latter: could you have had a big area of dry/clogged up grain? Rolled oats are a devil for that - although as you included rice hulls maybe it’s less likely.

To get good conversion in recipes that have a high proportion of unmalted grains it’s advisable to do a low temperature rest (e.g. 45°c) before heading up to the saccharinification temps (63-70); but your recipe doesn’t really have proportion of them to create the shortfall you’ve experienced. FWIW I’m with @foxy that doing the whole mash at 64°c is a bit low, because that’s predominantly beta-amylase territory (beta is great, but on its own would need a longer mash of around 90mins). Normally I do 45mins to an hour at 63°c then 20min or so at 70°c for a bit of alpha.

 

[foxbat]

Three things I can see here that could contribute to the problem:

Rolled oats: though already cooked will still be gummy in the mash and can need a bigger, longer sparge to flush out all the sugars.

Wheat malt: huskless, hard kernels. They need a finer crush than malted barley. If you don't care about the flavour difference then torrefied wheat is easier to work with.

High gravity beers: they need a bigger, longer sparge to get the sugars out from the larger grain mass. If you brew to your normal times and sizes then you can expect to lose about 10% from your usual brewhouse efficiency.

 

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

High gravity beers: they need a bigger, longer sparge to get the sugars out from the larger grain mass. If you brew to your normal times and sizes then you can expect to lose about 10% from your usual brewhouse efficiency.

This is an especially good point as @Kye said "smaller sparge than recipe".

 

[Kye]

Thanks so much for all the replies, really appreciate it. There's definitely a few things for me to look at again here and the alpha/ vs beta is not something I've been doing in my IPA recipes with oats and wheat, so could be a big contributing factor. In answer to some of the qn's:

Temp: I actually didn't check the temp on brew day but when I have previously it's been bang on. Defo something to make sure I do each time though
Wheat: was pre crushed and pretty fine as far as I could see
Oats: simple rolled oats, they were literally the Quaker Rolled Oats from the cereal aisle
Stirring/clogging: I made sure to do a good stir at the beginning and a couple of times through the mash, there were no dough balls, and as far as I could see all of the grains were wet

Changes I'll make next time:
- Mash at 63/64 for 1 hour and 68 for 30 mins
- Bigger sparge (which I guess will need a thicker mash - hopefully I can manage this without it being too thick)
- Switch back to torrified oats and use torrified wheat
- Possibly reduce the brewhouse efficiency, but maybe try the above 1st and if I'm still too low then reduce BH efficiency in the next brew
- Mare sure to check temp and give a few stirs through the mash

Thanks again everyone, lots for me to go on here. I'll post the results of my next one when I do a similar recipe.

 

[Buffers brewery]

I’ve just had a very similar experience with my last 2 brews. The first an NEIPA where I achieved a Brewhouse efficiency of a smidge over 70% and my last, a London bitter where I achieved a smidge over 80%. Big difference! The grain bills were similar but the obvious difference was the oats in the NEIPA. I’m sure had I just mashed the grain without the oats my efficiency would have been significantly higher. So I’m thinking (asking) when I next make an NEIPA can I mash the grain without the oats and mash/steep the oats separately adding the liquor to the wort prior to boiling? If so, what would be the time/temperature/water volume settings for mashing/steeping oats on their own?

 

[foxy]

Thanks so much for all the replies, really appreciate it. There's definitely a few things for me to look at again here and the alpha/ vs beta is not something I've been doing in my IPA recipes with oats and wheat, so could be a big contributing factor. In answer to some of the qn's:

Temp: I actually didn't check the temp on brew day but when I have previously it's been bang on. Defo something to make sure I do each time though
Wheat: was pre crushed and pretty fine as far as I could see
Oats: simple rolled oats, they were literally the Quaker Rolled Oats from the cereal aisle
Stirring/clogging: I made sure to do a good stir at the beginning and a couple of times through the mash, there were no dough balls, and as far as I could see all of the grains were wet

Changes I'll make next time:
- Mash at 63/64 for 1 hour and 68 for 30 mins
- Bigger sparge (which I guess will need a thicker mash - hopefully I can manage this without it being too thick)
- Switch back to torrified oats and use torrified wheat
- Possibly reduce the brewhouse efficiency, but maybe try the above 1st and if I'm still too low then reduce BH efficiency in the next brew
- Mare sure to check temp and give a few stirs through the mash

Thanks again everyone, lots for me to go on here. I'll post the results of my next one when I do a similar recipe.

foxbat makes a valid point, what you could do is increase your base malt and don't sparge at all.

 

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

Thanks so much for all the replies, really appreciate it. There's definitely a few things for me to look at again here and the alpha/ vs beta is not something I've been doing in my IPA recipes with oats and wheat, so could be a big contributing factor. In answer to some of the qn's:

Temp: I actually didn't check the temp on brew day but when I have previously it's been bang on. Defo something to make sure I do each time though
Wheat: was pre crushed and pretty fine as far as I could see
Oats: simple rolled oats, they were literally the Quaker Rolled Oats from the cereal aisle
Stirring/clogging: I made sure to do a good stir at the beginning and a couple of times through the mash, there were no dough balls, and as far as I could see all of the grains were wet

Changes I'll make next time:
- Mash at 63/64 for 1 hour and 68 for 30 mins
- Bigger sparge (which I guess will need a thicker mash - hopefully I can manage this without it being too thick)
- Switch back to torrified oats and use torrified wheat
- Possibly reduce the brewhouse efficiency, but maybe try the above 1st and if I'm still too low then reduce BH efficiency in the next brew
- Mare sure to check temp and give a few stirs through the mash

Thanks again everyone, lots for me to go on here. I'll post the results of my next one when I do a similar recipe.

Probably at risk of ‘teaching my grandmother’ here, but if you are able to recirculate during the mash then it certainly helps increase the efficiency. Also if fly sparging it’s worth keeping the sparge water good and hot (77-80°c) and running off as slowly as poss.

 

[matt76]

Wondering if anyone else has experienced very low mash efficiency when using oats and/or wheat and come up with any solution.

Yes and yes.

Using the BIAB method I find oats and/or wheat make the grain bag very sticky and gummy and much more difficult to squeeze out than normal.

The solution seems to be to do a rest in the 50-55degC range - from memory 15 mins should do the trick.

 

[thegrantickle]

Yes. Unmalted adjuncts will dramatically decrease the efficiency of the mash. These grains will gelatinise rapidly, worst case causing a stuck mash. It means there is a reduced flow in the mash tun, and this stops enzymes from reaching all the grains.

Mash lower in temp (64C ish) to help with enzymatic activity. A lot of times I hear people saying mash at 68-70 for a NEIPA to help with sweetness and body, but with so much oats and wheat it's really not needed.

I also like to mash my barley/fermentables for 30-40 mins before adding the unmalted grist for a further 30mins. Beta amylase has done most of its work in the first 10 mins. Just be aware you will have to add a second hot water infusion at the same time in order to maintain temperature.

Also bear in mind that flaked oats and wheat are generally not husked (as opposed to barley) which will further restrict the flow in the tun, so it would be advisable to add some rice hulls to aid this.

 

[Buffers brewery]

Just read this article on line….

https://www.love2brew.com/Articles.asp?ID=496
…supports what’s being said about doing a mash at 40C-50C for 30 minutes before doing the one hour mash at +65C to avoid gummyness. Also learnt oats need barley to mash :tinhat:

 

[thegrantickle]

Just read this article on line….

https://www.love2brew.com/Articles.asp?ID=496
…supports what’s being said about doing a mash at 40C-50C for 30 minutes before doing the one hour mash at +65C to avoid gummyness. Also learnt oats need barley to mash :tinhat:

Yeah, oats have very little, if any, diastatic power. Same with wheat.

You could bump up your grain bill by using enzymatic malt, just to help with that. Otherwise just make sure it's a really well modified super pale malt. Marris Otter is a lovely malt for standard pale ales, but it's DP will struggle with a lot of adjuncts. You can try pilsner malt even, which will help with mashing and also keep the colour light. My favourite malt for NEIPAs is Halceyon.

 

[foxy]

Yeah, oats have very little, if any, diastatic power. Same with wheat.

You could bump up your grain bill by using enzymatic malt, just to help with that. Otherwise just make sure it's a really well modified super pale malt. Marris Otter is a lovely malt for standard pale ales, but it's DP will struggle with a lot of adjuncts. You can try pilsner malt even, which will help with mashing and also keep the colour light. My favourite malt for NEIPAs is Halceyon.

I think you will find that malted wheat, which is what the OP was using has plenty of diastatic power.

 

[Kye]

Thought I would post about the results of this one for anyone who's interested (pic attached).

I ended up with a 7.2% beer as the Lallemand Kveik yeast attenuated to 85% and so went from 1.064 to 1.009. It's quite a crisp beer, much more than my other efforts using Lallemand Verdant yeast, and without the soft mouthfeel I've achieved with others despite the water profile. I have to put that down to the yeast as it's the only main difference between this and a few other brews and the drier finish being driven by a lower final gravity than the others. It has quite a bitter grapefruit pith type taste, with a bit of pineapple, drinkable but only for 1 or 2 pints for me. We had some friends staying for half term and my mate (who loves NEIPA's and strong IPAs) smashed most of the keg over 2 nights, so a happy customer there!

Thanks again for all the advice and suggestions, they will really help with future brews I'm sure.

 

[malhal]

According to Malt Miller if your recipe states oats but you use flaked torrified oats you need to double the amount because of the weight of the husk

Crisp Flaked Torrefied Oats Including Husk​

Used to add body and mouth feel. Use in conjunction with base malt to get conversion.

These Flaked Oats are supplied mixed with the husk. This item will always be supplied as uncrushed.

NOTE: If a recipe says you need 500g of oats you will need to order 1000g of this product due to the husk taking up nearly 50% of the volume.

https://www.themaltmiller.co.uk/product/flaked-oats/

Brewfather doesn't appear to calculate this difference. E.g. changing torrefied oats to naked oats makes no change to the OG.