Definition of life

[cwrw]

What do you rate as being worth being patient with - one bubble every 6 minutes from a lager primary on the fifth day (whilst only dropping .20 gravity points). Is this a sign of impending but slowly evolving life of a bohemian lager, or is it a sign to order some more yeast and re-pitch to get my remaining 15-20 points?? :wha: :wha:

 

[phettebs]

What was your OG?
What is your target FG?
What is the current SG?
Did you pitch a starter?
Did you oxygenate the wort prior to pitching?
What temp is it fermenting at?

Hard to answer without knowing where you are in the process...

Baz

 

[cwrw]

What was your OG?
What is your target FG?
What is the current SG?
Did you pitch a starter?
Did you oxygenate the wort prior to pitching?
What temp is it fermenting at?

Hard to answer without knowing where you are in the process...

Baz

my middle name is 'vague'!
OG - .52
FG - .13
Current SG - .29
No starter, just smack-pack - 2124 wyeast Bohemian
Did not oxygenate
Fermenting at 10.2c
Pattern so far has been gradual onset of fermentation after three hours, then fair activity till end of second day, then sluggish bubbler belching at a pace of about once every 5-6 minutes, and I'm tempted to say ever so slightly improved today?!

Thanks for the uptake Baz, Cheers, Cem

 

[ScottM]

It sounds like its been doing fine but it's strange that it's started to struggle so far away from your expected target.

Did you pitch at room temp then gradually lower the temperature, or did you bung it in at 10 degrees?

If pitching at 10 degrees you would probably need 3x as much yeast as if pitching at 22 degrees. This can get the yeast all out of shape and throw a wobbly with mega ester production (happened to me). Not sure if stalling is another trait when this is the case.

 

[cwrw]

I pitched at 22c as per instructions, and when signs of activity started I dropped the temperature down to 14c and eventually 10c by 16 hours in if I recall.

 

[ScottM]

I pitched at 22c as per instructions, and when signs of activity started I dropped the temperature down to 14c and eventually 10c by 16 hours in if I recall.

Yeah that all sounds fine then.

I would give it a few days and check the gravity again. It's likely that the seal isn't perfect on the FV and some of the gas will be escaping there.

 

[Good Ed]

you are probably seeing the effect of underpitching your yeast, although for lagers I don't even look at them until after 3 weeks in the FV.

you need to pitch big, and that means growing your yeast by making starters and stepping up etc. for a 1052 lager you need ~440 bn cells, and with 1 smack pack you have probably pitched ~100bn cells depending on it's health.

have a look at Mr Malty and also consider buying the Yeast book by Chris White and Jamil Zainashelf

having said that you will probably end up with a nice beer

 

[phettebs]

Looks like I'm late getting back to the party but my questions spurred some discussion. I will concur with Good Ed on underpitching. I just used that yeast for a classic american pilsner and then a Maibock. I made a massive starter for the pilsner and then used much of that yeast for the Maibock. I also aerated with pure O2 on both of them. Both times the yeast performed very well for me. Whenever I use liquid yeast, I make a starter. When brewing a lager, I would not dream of skipping it.

Give it some time and it will finish into a nice beer.

Baz

 

[ScottM]

Surely under-pitching would only be the case if the pitching temp was at lager fermenting levels? Everything I have read states that if pitching at the fermenting temp you need WAY more, but if pitching at a higher temp and lowering it over a day or 2 then normal pitching rates apply.

 

[cwrw]

Many Thanks for the advice so far :thumb:
My conclusions from it is that I have (a) probably lowered the temperature prematurely, instead of leaving it longer at the 22c mark, then lowering, or (b) suffered because of the lack of starter. Regardless of which it is, the final product will take longer to reach where it is going, would this be right?

 

[Good Ed]

Surely under-pitching would only be the case if the pitching temp was at lager fermenting levels? Everything I have read states that if pitching at the fermenting temp you need WAY more, but if pitching at a higher temp and lowering it over a day or 2 then normal pitching rates apply.

I wouldn't know about this process, it would seem you are using your beer as a starter for the yeast to get up to speed to start their business. I always pitch cool and let the temperature to rise slightly. I'm planning a Dortmunder next week and will pitch at 8C leave at this for a day or so then up to 10C for 3 weeks.

Many Thanks for the advice so far :thumb:
My conclusions from it is that I have (a) probably lowered the temperature prematurely, instead of leaving it longer at the 22c mark, then lowering, or (b) suffered because of the lack of starter. Regardless of which it is, the final product will take longer to reach where it is going, would this be right?

I'm sure it will be fine, but as I say with lagers I just leave well alone for 3 weeks, and have had one in the FV for nearly 6 weeks

 

[cwrw]

OOPs!
Just been observing the past 20 minutes or so - no activity and we're clocking 11c. I'll leave alone, and won't invite another yeast strain, hopefully there is some activity going on despite a lack of bubbling at present?

 

[ScottM]

Sounds like a plan :)

 

[Aleman]

Surely under-pitching would only be the case if the pitching temp was at lager fermenting levels? Everything I have read states that if pitching at the fermenting temp you need WAY more, but if pitching at a higher temp and lowering it over a day or 2 then normal pitching rates apply.

Scott, I can only repeat what Ed said

Have a look at Mr Malty and also consider buying the Yeast book by Chris White and Jamil Zainashef

One packet of liquid yeast is not enough to pitch at optimum levels. For ales I make a 2L starter (and pitch the lot) for lagers I make a 5L starter, and pitch the sediment

 

[ScottM]

Surely under-pitching would only be the case if the pitching temp was at lager fermenting levels? Everything I have read states that if pitching at the fermenting temp you need WAY more, but if pitching at a higher temp and lowering it over a day or 2 then normal pitching rates apply.

Scott, I can only repeat what Ed said

Have a look at Mr Malty and also consider buying the Yeast book by Chris White and Jamil Zainashef

One packet of liquid yeast is not enough to pitch at optimum levels. For ales I make a 2L starter (and pitch the lot) for lagers I make a 5L starter, and pitch the sediment

So is liquid yeast not as good as packet yeast then?

 

[Aleman]

One packet of liquid yeast is not enough to pitch at optimum levels. For ales I make a 2L starter (and pitch the lot) for lagers I make a 5L starter, and pitch the sediment

So is liquid yeast not as good as packet yeast then?

:hmm: . . . . . There are not as many active cells in a Wyeast or Whitelabs 'packet' as there are in an 11g sachet of dried yeast (properly rehydrated of course) . . .Pitching a like for like quantity (ie same number of cells / ml) of the same strain then there should be no difference in the quality of the beer produced . . . In the real world the dried yeast is inferior as the freeze drying process does take something from the yeast.

 

[phettebs]

I like liquid yeast because of the varieties available to me vs. dry and for the finished products those strains produce. But as we've said, you pretty much have to make a starter with a liquid yeast. So, not inferior. Not better. Just a different set of variables to play with.

 

[ScottM]

One packet of liquid yeast is not enough to pitch at optimum levels. For ales I make a 2L starter (and pitch the lot) for lagers I make a 5L starter, and pitch the sediment

So is liquid yeast not as good as packet yeast then?

:hmm: . . . . . There are not as many active cells in a Wyeast or Whitelabs 'packet' as there are in an 11g sachet of dried yeast (properly rehydrated of course) . . .Pitching a like for like quantity (ie same number of cells / ml) of the same strain then there should be no difference in the quality of the beer produced . . . In the real world the dried yeast is inferior as the freeze drying process does take something from the yeast.

Learn something new everyday, thanks for that :thumb:

I had always assumed that the quantity of the yeast cells was higher, as well as the quality :)

 

[cwrw]

Definitely a conscise and constructive lesson in handling yeast for me, thanks all, that's what I like! :clap: :hat:

 

[cwrw]

Update: I have syphoned some of the trub from the primary vessel, and have been rapidly growing a starter for my next brew, which proves that the yeast is still alive, furthermore, since syphoning off some of the trub the primary vessel activity seems to have increased somewhat :wha:
SLOWLY GETTING THERE ...BLINKIN' LAGERS :whistle: