Decoction question

[StevieDS]

I'm just looking at the mash schedule for the brew im doing this weekend. Its as follows:
Mash in at 41c and rest for 20 mins, raise to 66c and rest for 20 mins, then pull a thick decoction, raise it to 71c then boil it.
If I follow this schedule the majority of the grain is at 66c for only 20 mins before being removed for the decoction. Does this give enough time for sacchrification to take place, or does the decoction allow this to continue?
Something just doesn't seem right.

 

[zgoda]

Then you return the decoction into main mash, keep it at 72c for another 30-40 mins...

Generally it's take part of mash and boil it then return to raise temperature to next level for another rest.

 

[StevieDS]

Yeh I understand that, and I've done decoctions before, but I was just wondering about the theory side and the fact that the grain is at standard 66c mash temp for such a short time. How come you still get a good extraction?

 

[Aleman]

I'm just looking at the mash schedule for the brew im doing this weekend. Its as follows:
Mash in at 41c and rest for 20 mins, raise to 66c and rest for 20 mins, then pull a thick decoction, raise it to 71c then boil it.
If I follow this schedule the majority of the grain is at 66c for only 20 mins before being removed for the decoction. Does this give enough time for sacchrification to take place, or does the decoction allow this to continue?
Something just doesn't seem right.

Your Decoction Schedule is all to cock! At all times you pull a thick decoction . . . apart from the last one when you pull a thin decoction to mash out. Also when taking the decoctions from temp to boiling, the decoction goes through each of the remaining mash temps and is rested at each mash temp. . . The main mash stays at the lower temp for quite some time.

Decoction Theory

Also you don't go from rest temp to boiling instantly (Unless you employ the Czech Trick ) it does take some time . . . and then you boil for 10-15 minutes to develop the melanoidins

 

[StevieDS]

Aleman I looked at the link u give me and ur decoction schedule is pretty much what I did for my pilsner.
This one is a Hefeweissen and I've been advised by pitssy to do a single decoction mash but his mash schedule, like yours contains a fairly lengthy protein rest and I wanted to avoid that cos I'm pretty sure my malt is fully modified. But I'm struggling to find out how to do a single decoction mash without the protein rest.
I need help!

 

[Aleman]

Single decoction with no protein rest.

Dough in to hit 64-66C Rest for 45 minutes take 40% (By Volume) of the thin part of the mash (Well as much liquid as possible . . .but you will probably have to take some grain), heat to 78C and rest for 15 minutes . . . then raise to boiling and boil for 10-20 minutes . . . then return to the main mash. . . . for mash out.

Of course this step misses out the ferrulic rest that is desirable for a wheat beer, so start with two mashes one with the barley malt, and one with the wheat . . . wheat at 44C and barley mash at 66C . . . after 30 minutes heat the wheat mash up to 66C and combine the mashes . . . rest for another 30-40 minutes . . . continue with the mash out thin decoction

 

[pittsy]

That's why i get weyermann and Dingemann grains not as modified as English and American grain ( so i'm told ) which means certain rests can be done that produce more/less clove and so on from the yeast and i'm sold on the idea that decoction makes a difference (but that's just me) and i like the deep orange colours you get from pale ale and pale wheat that would of made a pale yellow hefe . I'm still in the early days of temps and rest times really , prob take me years to get it "right" happy brewing

 

[StevieDS]

Is there a reason why the acid rest can't be done with the wheat and barley together rather than doing two mashes at the start?

 

[zgoda]

I don't know any. I'm mashing both wheat and barley malts together the whole process.

 

[Aleman]

Is there a reason why the acid rest can't be done with the wheat and barley together rather than doing two mashes at the start?

None whatsoever, you would then need to do a double decoction to go from 45C -> 65C -> 78C

 

[StevieDS]

Yeh I did a bit of research on this and I'm gonna go with the acid - two stage saccharification - mash out double decoction, the hochkurz mash I believe its called. Got it from http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?ti ... _Decoction.

Very interesting reading.