Crazy difference in water reports.

[Grizzly299]

I had my water analysed so that I could start adjusting Chloride and Sulphate.

Here's what came back;

Murphy & Sons

PH 5.94
Nitrate 6.8
Total Hardness (CaCO3): 32
Calcium: 9.37
Magnesium: 1.43
Chloride 17.65
Sulphate: 4.89
Alkilinity (CaCO3): 20

When you look at these you'll see why I'm surprised.

Here are my Water Authority's figures from 2013

PH: 7.4
Nitrate: 9.04
Total hardness (CaCO3) : 213
Calcium: 85
Magnesium: Unpublished
Chloride: Unpublished
Sulphate: Unpublished


Can anyone pass comment, because I'm wondering if my sample got mixed up with someone elses. Either that or my water source has changed rather dramatically?

 

[MyQul]

I vaguely remember posts on this forum or another stating murphys & sons are cack at doing water reports. So that may be where the discrepancy lies

 

[Grizzly299]

I vaguely remember posts on this forum or another stating murphys & sons are cack at doing water reports. So that may be where the discrepancy lies

I wouldn't mind if it was that it didn't balance out or something, but it's like a totally different water source :whistle:

 

[MyQul]

Well, the second figures are from 2013, is it possible you water company are sourcing your water from elsewhere?

 

[Grizzly299]

Well, the second figures are from 2013, is it possible you water company are sourcing your water from elsewhere?

There is one place it could be, and the figures would make more sense

7.4 PH
22 as Hardness (CaCO3)
3.99 for nitrate
9 for calcium
18.5 for chloride
3.3 for sulphate

Think I'll ring them tomorrow to find out, as the above source seems more likely given the more recent figures. Even though they still quote me as being in the other catchment area on their website.

Unless by some really unlucky fluke I've sent off for analysis whilst we are temporarily on another supply....

 

[trueblue]

Never tried Murphy's for testing but have read the can be inconstant. I did buy sulphuric acid from them and on advice from others I carried out my own test on the strength and was different to what was on the bottle. One big trouble with water authority's reports are they tend to cover an large area over a set period of time and will report a mean average so may not be accurate. Phoenix analytical http://www.phoenix-analytical.co.uk/ supply a good reliable service. He goes under the name wallybrew on other forums but never seen him here.

 

[IainM]

I vaguely remember posts on this forum or another stating murphys & sons are cack at doing water reports. So that may be where the discrepancy lies

Yeah, this is the thread. The Murphy report was rubbish, tantamount to chemically impossible. Not worth the paper its printed on.

 

[Grizzly299]

Yeah, this is the thread. The Murphy report was rubbish, tantamount to chemically impossible. Not worth the paper its printed on.

:lol: I remember dismantling and re-building that one. I do wonder if they just fudge them in order to sell their treatments like DWB. Purely out of interest, I think I'll send another sample to Neil over at phoenix analytical and see how it compares.

 

[trueblue]

:lol: I remember dismantling and re-building that one. I do wonder if they just fudge them in order to sell their treatments like DWB.

Yep dead right. DWB is a mixture of various salts but you are better tailoring the individual salts you need but they push it as a one size fits all cure.

 

[Grizzly299]

Yep dead right. DWB is a mixture of various salts but you are better tailoring the individual salts you need but they push it as a one size fits all cure.

I was never interested in their treatment recommendations, to be honest. I have a reasonable idea of how to add the necessary salts myself. I genuinely hope that their results are a true representation of my water.

However if I find that they are not, then someone will be held accountable and there will be no wriggling out of it.

There is no one size fits all cure for water treatment, as was highlighted by the magical "5.2 stabiliser" craze. Another crock of.....:whistle:

 

[Clint]

Cack. ...nice one myqul

 

[Simonh82]

I'd be interested to know how this pans out. I got a water report from Murphy and Sons and whilst bits of it certainly stacked up with my Thames Water report and the alkalinity test kit I got, Bru'N'Water consistently says that the anion/cation levels are unbalanced overall indicating an error in the report.

 

[chuffer]

Ive ditched using murphy and sons. After following their recommendations I found that my mash pH was too low on a number of occasions. I suspect the this is due to fluctuations in the alkalinity over time. I have therefore took heed of a number of members' advice (and strange steve's sterling how to threads) and got salifert kits to test on th day. Today is the first time I brew with adjustments based on this approach so fingers crossed it works!

 

[Grizzly299]

Just an update. I've spoken to Welsh Water and they have confirmed that I'm on the same supply as I've always been on which is from a borehole and is therefore hard.

They also noted that their threshold for pH is 6.5.

So in other words this Murphy and Sons water report is probably cack. I've been in contact with their lab and they are going to look into it apparently.

 

[Grizzly299]

Another suspicion of mine is that they may well just give you someone elses water report if they think that you are in a similar area or share the same supply. Then charging for the privilege of analysing it when no analysis is being undertaken.


I'm testing this theory today.

 

[dad_of_jon]

Another suspicion of mine is that they may well just give you someone elses water report if they think that you are in a similar area or share the same supply. Then charging for the privilege of analysing it when no analysis is being undertaken.


I'm testing this theory today.

you could send them some chase spring water from a different address. the figures on the bottles from the 3 different supermarkets its sold in all tie up. Then you'll have a better idea how hit and miss they are. or even just use bottled water and adjust that. :hmm: the bottled water composition is a more known quantity?

 

[Grizzly299]

you could send them some chase spring water from a different address. the figures on the bottles from the 3 different supermarkets its sold in all tie up. Then you'll have a better idea how hit and miss they are. or even just use bottled water and adjust that. :hmm: the bottled water composition is a more known quantity?

I was just going to compare it to a local brewery(Who have soft water) who have used Murphy and Sons and see if they have duplicated the report.

 

[Grizzly299]

Okay, so I've had a response from Murphy and Sons.


"I wouldn’t worry too much about this, water authority reports are at best an average taken over a period of, sometimes, a year.

Their reports are usually backdated and the most important thing is that they aren’t sampling the water coming out of your tap.

This is why for years we have run this service for customers because you get to know the exact ionic content coming out of your tap, not the average of an area etc.



Our analysis is carried out on a Thermo Fisher Gallery Pus Discrete Analyser which many water authorities also use.

It is calibrated before use and QC samples are always run to ensure that everything is ok prior to the analysis of customer samples.



We are part of a proficiency scheme too whereby every three months a sample is sent to us which we test, then we enter our results and our statistics are compared against many other labs doing the same analysis.

These tests always come back with passes so we have full confidence in our analysis.



With regards to the water authorities statement about pH, 6.5 is their limit, each authority can set their own limits.

pH is such an unreliable measurement of water anyway due to hydrogen ions being exchanged all the time, therefore it is quite possible your pH is lower than what they state as their limit.

Again this relates to them testing an average and not the water coming out of your tap.



I hope this helps with regards to the questions you had

Let me know if I can help further more

Thanks"

 

[dad_of_jon]

Okay, so I've had a response from Murphy and Sons.


"I wouldn’t worry too much about this, water authority reports are at best an average taken over a period of, sometimes, a year.

Their reports are usually backdated and the most important thing is that they aren’t sampling the water coming out of your tap.

This is why for years we have run this service for customers because you get to know the exact ionic content coming out of your tap, not the average of an area etc.

Perhaps boiled de-ionised water will give you the cleanest slate to start off with?

Our analysis is carried out on a Thermo Fisher Gallery Pus Discrete Analyser which many water authorities also use.

It is calibrated before use and QC samples are always run to ensure that everything is ok prior to the analysis of customer samples.



We are part of a proficiency scheme too whereby every three months a sample is sent to us which we test, then we enter our results and our statistics are compared against many other labs doing the same analysis.

These tests always come back with passes so we have full confidence in our analysis.



With regards to the water authorities statement about pH, 6.5 is their limit, each authority can set their own limits.

pH is such an unreliable measurement of water anyway due to hydrogen ions being exchanged all the time, therefore it is quite possible your pH is lower than what they state as their limit.

Again this relates to them testing an average and not the water coming out of your tap.



I hope this helps with regards to the questions you had

Let me know if I can help further more

Thanks"

Hmm, i'm liking not treating tap water and using bottled more and more now.

It's sad really as someone who used to HATE drinking water I could still tell when welsh water switched over to a different water treatment. - tea without milk develops a film on the surface whereas previously this didn't exist. Chlorine vs Cholromine?

 

[Grizzly299]

Well I'm reasonably happy with his explanation and I shall proceed to treat my water based on the analysis provided. We'll see how the beer turns out and let that do the talking.