Cost of the boil.

[Weizenberg]

The prospectus of the Steinecker-Krones Stromboli boiler has an intersting table of temperature and duration for various aspects of the boil.

These are in wide use.

 

[Cwrw666]

Excellent back and forth going on here to explain why I do what I do to avoid experiencing that which I've never experienced.
Reminds me of the oxidation debate.

 

[Agentgonzo]

Excellent back and forth going on here to explain why I do what I do to avoid experiencing that which I've never experienced.
Reminds me of the oxidation debate.

Indeed. For a lot of this, it's all academic as I (and I assume most others) brew according to the advice (which does differ!!!) and with sufficient safety margin to ensure we brew great beer. But I do find underlying science fascinating (and thus the reasons behind the advice/brewing procedures).

 

[Agentgonzo]

If DMS removal is only a factor of the temperature exceeding its boiling point, how do wort strippers work? How is DMS removed during fermentation, at temperatures below its boiling point?

In short, it's not only a factor of temperature (see above post).

I've never really looked at a wort stripper, but from a quick search (Boreas wort stripping system - Steinecker) it looks like a combination of increasing the surface area and creating a lower pressure to increase evaporation rates of DMS from the wort.

It's also removed during fermentation by evaporation (which needs a much longer time than the boil because of the lower temperature) .

Glad to help

 

[Sadfield]

I've never really looked at a wort stripper, but from a quick search (Boreas wort stripping system - Steinecker) it looks like a combination of increasing the surface area and creating a lower pressure to increase evaporation rates of DMS from the wort.

I see you are conveniently omitting the important parts about stripping gas and water vapour being important, in the pdf in that link. There another word for water vapour, it begins with S, but I just can't place it. Oh yes, Steam, that's it. I recall someone saying "There's nothing special about the steam here".

"Gentle process

The Boreas stripping vessel works without the use of thermal energy or vacuum. Free DMS is gently cast out via the use of stripping gas."

"Vaporisation is the driving power of the stripping process. The formation of water vapour causes the removal of the free DMS from the wort."

It's also removed during fermentation by evaporation (which needs a much longer time than the boil because of the lower temperature) .

Stop making things up.

DMS as with sulphur dioxide and hop volatiles are removed by CO2 during fermentation, hence the need for CO2 purification when CO2 is captured for reuse in the brewery

"The DMS evolution in the fermentor gas generally followed the reduction of DMS in the fermentation medium except in the latter stages, at which medium DMS concentrations increased. In general, the concentration of DMS in CO2 increased to a maximum, usually during the first day of fermentation, then decreased to a considerably lower, yet still significant, value at the end of fermentation"

https://www.agraria.com.br/extranet...ontrole_de_dms_no_co2_da_cervejaria_-_ing.pdf
Glad to help .

 

[Donegal john]

The posts on this demonstrate how home brewers can never agree on a single process or method of doing anything.
No matter what thread about what subject it’s always the same. Lots of people saying they are right and everyone else is wrong.
Love it lol

 

[Agentgonzo]

Sorry, this was my mistake. I genuinely thought you were asking a question because you wanted to know the answer, but apparently you already knew the answer .

As I said, I don't know about wort strippers. You obviously know more than I do about them.

Steam and water vapour are different things. Steam is a gas. Water vapour is a suspension is liquid drops in a gas.

Stop making things up.

I think you'll find that evaporation is a well understood and documented phenomena. Evaporation is a type of vaporization that occurs on the surface of a liquid as it changes into the gas phase.

Milk the funk:
"Much of the DMS in wort that is formed during the wort production process is volatilized off during fermentation due to off-gassing of CO2". (Volatisation means either evaporation (in the case) or sublimation (in the case of a solid)).

In the case of the fermenter, this happens in two places. At the surface of the wort and at the internal surface of the CO2 bubbles that rise through the beer. In both of these cases, DMS, other volatiles and indeed a bit of water will evaporate - either into the CO2 bubble that rises to the surface and join the gases is the headspace of the fermenter, or directly into the headspace at the surface of the wort.

Once the DMS (and other volatiles) is in the headspace along with the CO2, it gets pushed out of the airlock as normal. In this case, you could think of it being "carried" by the CO2, but in reality is just a mixture of gases - most of which is co2. That's why (as you say) the CO2 needs to be purified. It may just be a terminology thing. I've never seen it explained exactly what "scrubbing" is, so it may just be a combination promoting the volatisation and providing a mechanical means to transport the volatiles away from the base liquid. Either way, I think we're describing the same thing

Once again, happy to help clarify the science

 

[Donegal john]

So to answer the original question the rise in the price of electric (I don’t use gas) hasn’t impacted on me in regards to brewing as I brew for enjoyment not to save money.
Easy to loose sight of the direction of a topic

 

[Donegal john]

Oh and there is always a common theme of one person starting the argument based on the premise that his argument is the only true one.
Getting a bit old at this stage.

 

[Sadfield]

Oh and there is always a common theme of one person starting the argument based on the premise that his argument is the only true one.
Getting a bit old at this stage.

That's fundamentally what an argument is, an exchange of diverging or opposite views.

Anyhow the original question was actually how much will fuel prices affect the price of a batch of homebrewed beer. Which is/was unanswerable due to the ongoing variance in fuel prices and the massive variables in how people boil wort.

"There's no wrong answers, only better questions"

 

[Donegal john]

No mention of “fuel”

As most of you know I don't brew beer and being a wine maker, I don't boil so I was wondering how much has the increase in the price of gas and electric put on a batch of beer and how much will the predicted rise effect the price.

 

[Sadfield]

No mention of “fuel”

As most of you know I don't brew beer and being a wine maker, I don't boil so I was wondering how much has the increase in the price of gas and electric put on a batch of beer and how much will the predicted rise effect the price.

As I didn't use quotation marks, i'm not sure why you are thinking it was taken verbatim from the first post. I'm pretty sure gas qualifies as a fuel. If you like i'll happily edit it to read energy.

 

[Donegal john]

Sorry

As I didn't use quotation marks, i'm not sure why you are thinking it was taken verbatim from the first post. I'm pretty sure gas qualifies as a fuel. If you like i'll happily edit it to read energy.

I’m not intrested in your debate. Cheers anyway.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

"There's no wrong answers, only better questions"

I assumed most brewers brew for the same length of time (judging from the 30-minute boil thread) and as the predicted rise in gas and electric is well published i thought most members would be able to give a fairly accurate guess at how much this was going to add to the cost of a brew day.

 

[Sadfield]

I assumed most brewers brew for the same length of time (judging from the 30-minute boil thread) and as the predicted rise in gas and electric is well published i thought most members would be able to give a fairly accurate guess at how much this was going to add to the cost of a brew day.

Would that be the WW3 30 minute boil thread?

Are the prices the same now as they were predicted in March?

In fairness it was an interesting point to raise. Unfortunately, its proven to be impossible to answer. And will remain so. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing. It would be pretty boring if every thread could be answered in one post. It's also not how group conversations normally evolve in any other situation. Is it unreasonable for the thread to have moved on after 6 months?

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Is it unreasonable for the thread to have moved on after 6 months?

Wow 6 months since i posted how time flies.

 

[Agentgonzo]

I assumed most brewers brew for the same length of time (judging from the 30-minute boil thread) and as the predicted rise in gas and electric is well published i thought most members would be able to give a fairly accurate guess at how much this was going to add to the cost of a brew day.

I genuinely don't know how much it costs, because I've been fortunate enough to never have had it been an actual issue (much like the fuel cost to drive to other hobbies hasn't been prohibitive).

Back of the envelope maths:
Heating strike liquor: half an hour
Heating sparge liquor: half an hour
Mash: negligible, as it's just maintaining temperature
Raising to boil temperature: 15 minutes
Boil: 1 hour.

All times approximate at max power (~3kW element).

So let's call that 7 kWh, definitely less than 10kWh per brew.

Multiply that by whatever the hourly rate for electricity is now. Subtract whatever it was before. You'll have your golden figure. ~50p per kWh. Brew day costs, say £3 in electricity. It used to cost, say, £1.

My figures may be wrong. Let me know if they are, because I'm enjoying a rather fine Bordeaux at the moment

Edit: Oh, this is for a 23 litre batch

 

[starseeker]

Thats plenty close enough for most brew days i would of thought ,

 

[foxy]

The prospectus of the Steinecker-Krones Stromboli boiler has an intersting table of temperature and duration for various aspects of the boil.

These are in wide use.

It is amazing that all these high tech, energy saving commercial brew kettles work on the "theory" that it takes the movement of the wort and heat to dislodge the undesirable volatile's. Either with mechanical agitation or spray.
I think the closest we will get as home brewers is a mini microwave model.

 

[Agentgonzo]

I'm thinking of registering my utility room/brewery as a business to take advantage of the Tory handouts for rich people.

New business caps:
Electricity: 21.1p /kWh
Gas: 7.5p/kWh

Us little people:
Electricity: 50p/kWh
Gas: 15p/kWh