Cost of Beer Kits

[terrym]

I've had an occasional look at this thread over the last few days
https://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/threads/premium-kit-recommendation.84825/#post-864316
and noticed that one kit recommendation was nearly £33 which, with p&p if you just bought that one item, would be £39 total delivered. That seems a lot of money to pay for a kit beer and I would want it to be exceptional, at least as good as or hopefully better than it's commercial equivalents.
In my experience only a few of the kits I ever did matched a commercial beer, whether a £25 premium kit or a one can with a lot of tweeking.
Noting that AG brewers can produce good quality beers for a lot less than £10 and extract brewers not a great deal more what would kit brewers pay for a kit as a maximum cost and what do they expect from it? Certainly I would have paid no more than £25ish delivered for '40 pint' premium kit, although I did expect to have to tweek cheaper kits with extras to get them up to standard.

 

[pms67]

£20-£25 would be my maximum, and at that it would probably only be Young’s IPA or a couple of Festivals range
I wouldn’t buy another 1 can kit if I have any other option as by the time you tweak it you might as well do all grain or extract

I will now contradict myself and say if pushed the only 1 can kit I would pay for would be a Brewferm as they are more realistic and only make 9-12 litres and turn out good after a long conditioning time

 

[user 23602]

Unfortunately, like myself, I love craft beer, which is pricey.

All the Bitter and British Ales kits, which tend to be cheaper, to me would be pointless and I just wouldn't enjoy the beer.

The craft beers ones, that you can tweak and have higher ABV expectations are a bit more pricey, but so far... I have not been disappointed. 40 bottles of DIPA at 9% for £1 a bottle is still extremely good value for money.

Whilst AG is definitely the way forward, the equipment cost upfront is something people don't have but they still want to brew and enjoy what they're doing. It's like buying a house, in the long term it's worth it, but when you're already paying a fortune in rent, how can you save up for the house.

 

[terrym]

Whilst AG is definitely the way forward, the equipment cost upfront is something people don't have but they still want to brew and enjoy what they're doing. It's like buying a house, in the long term it's worth it, but when you're already paying a fortune in rent, how can you save up for the house.

You don't have to brew extract or AG with costly specialist equipment, many on here brew small volume stove top AG beers and others, including myself, brew partial mashes with grain and malt extract. In my case the only major investment I made to move away from kits was an 11 litre stockpot which was the largest size that would comfortably fit my hob, and I have no problem in brewing up to 20 litre batches with my set up. And the beauty is that you can pretty much brew what you want and you are not constrained by what's in the tin or box. That said AG and extract beers can consume anywhere from 2 -5 hours from start to finishing tidying up on brew day and that is a time luxury that many people don't have.

 

[Graz]

Nominally I'm in the approximately £25 for a two can kit region for anything I make. Sometimes a bit less for example a Woodfordes or similar kit can be had for £20 or less. I've largely been disappointed with anything made from a single can + sugar type of kit and if pimping by using LME or DME instead and adding a hops then there isn't much in it price wise. As mentioned Brewferm being the exception but as they usually only make a low volume it's effectively a two can kit anyway. I simply don't have time for AG at the moment though I might dabble with some extract brewing this year but even that wouldn't take over from kits. So even at £25 I'm getting beer for 63p a pint which seems good value to me.

Any £30 plus kit is typically something with a high ABV and potentially something a bit special, for example: https://www.lovebrewing.co.uk/founders-double-american-ipa-beerworks-craft-brewery-series/

But also look at what you get:

Kit Contains:

• 1 x 3kg IPA Malt
• 1 x 3kg Lager Malt
• 1 x 20g US West Coast
• 1 x 90g Summit Hops
• 1 x 90g Citra Hops
• 1 x 150g Priming Sugar

That's 6kg of malt, twice the amount you get in a Woodfordes / Muntons two can, and on top of that there's 180g of hops and some semi decent yeast.

Whilst I haven't made this kit or their Imperial Stout I'm quite tempted by both despite the £30 - £40 price tag. But everyone has a different agenda when it comes to home brewing.

 

[PhilBrew]

Hi

Don't get me wrong here, I thoroughly enjoy my AG brewdays and am (personally) very happy with the beer I produce whilst enjoying them ... but, it riles me when I see comments like this ...

Whilst AG is definitely the way forward, the equipment cost upfront is something people don't have but they still want to brew and enjoy what they're doing.

... and this ...

Noting that AG brewers can produce good quality beers for a lot less than £10 and extract brewers not a great deal more ...

... on forums ... N.B. not having a go just at you @terrym and @Grizzly Notations, these are oft stated comments, which all too often don't go unquestioned, and my reason for posting is simply to remind forum members of the other (hidden) costs of extract and AG brewing

... because it's not just the extra equipment needed for Extract/AG brewing ... those "less than £10", "not much more" and "£20-£25" (or even up to £33 +P&P) estimates for AG, extract and kit brews are only considering the ingredients ... as wells as the extra equipment costs all of the increased energy costs of extract and AG brewing are virtually always excluded from these sorts of estimates ... and if you had to put a price on your (the brewer's) time, then the cost of spending the extra hour or two needed to produce your wort by extract brewing over kit-brewing, or the 2-4 hours extra again needed to produce a wort from grain, would almost definitely outweigh the increased costs of ingredients (even if you only paid yourself Minimum Wage )

Anyway, I just wanted to make that point, but having made it would now suggest if people feel they want to discuss the pros (and cons) around the different brewing methods they should probably do so on a different thread, rather than here ... I don't want to divert the conversation from the original intention I believe @terrym had for this thread, to discuss whether "premium kits" are worth the extra money over "basic kits" ... I do have a couple of "go to" kit brews that I will use on occasions, a Wherry with a little extra DME and dry-hopped with Goldings, or a Coopers Stout with a kilo of DME, or one of the Brewferm kits, which with the extra ingredients probably do average out to around £20-£25 per (40-ish pint) brew

Cheers, PhilB

 

[user 23602]

You don't have to brew extract or AG with costly specialist equipment, many on here brew small volume stove top AG beers and others, including myself, brew partial mashes with grain and malt extract. In my case the only major investment I made to move away from kits was an 11 litre stockpot which was the largest size that would comfortably fit my hob, and I have no problem in brewing up to 20 litre batches with my set up.

I agree to an extent, but Extract seems to be the go-to for new starters, which after 9 months, I still consider myself a new starter. A new starter probably spends between £20-30 for their first FV and accessories, I believe my Wilko set was £25 and a few quid for sanitizing stuff. My first extract kit was maybe £12 or £16 which again is fine for your first ever homebrew. Now, I get an allowance... Yes, the wife keeps me check of what I can spend on my homebrewing, I've no problem admitting that, but would I rather spend £30 a month on a very good extract kit each month as I do... Or spend £30 one month buying a stock pot and waiting another month before I can brew something... Probably not. My point was aimed more at my personal preference of wanting to brew something every month than take a gamble at AG. I realise everything can be picked up secondhand and relatively cheap, but it's still more money than I can spend on a monthly basis.

but, it riles me when I see comments like this ...

Using the term people in my original response was vague, I basically meant people with less disposable income ie. Me. I've said above that I realise everything can be picked up secondhand and relatively cheap, but it's still more money than I can spend on a monthly basis unfortunately. But I do think my biggest kick in the nuts is time and space. Extract allows me to do it all in the FV, from start to bottle. So that's one bit of equipment that I have to be considerate about in terms of storage.

 

[Rodcx500z]

After taking stock in July last year I bought a klarstein fullhorn 30L kettle for £129-99 a bag for £4-00, I already had pbs fv's and loads of bottles, the step up to all grain is not as dear as you think, I then saved up and bought a chiller £30-00 I did no chill at first, you will make great ale and the money you save buys other stuff, just bought a gas bottle next will be a corny keg and the bits to make it work, I have nothing against kits they are good and I still do them sometimes but ag is better, what ever you do just enjoy it, and remember the jump to ag need not be expensive just plan it and do it a bit at a time

 

[Rodcx500z]

Chippy as Phil says you can move this else were if you like so as not to ditract from Terrys original post

 

[user 23602]

Chippy as Phil says you can move this else were if you like so as not to ditract from Terrys original post

I think it's relevant. Its discussing why people are paying what they do for extract compared instead of moving to AG.

 

[Dave 666]

I think my limit would also be about £25 all in. Anything more is likely more down to much increased abv percentage than anything exceptionally special ingredient wise. And I'm feeling that with the likes of "double ipa" kits that the same result would likely be gained with a standard 40 pint or 23 litre kit short filled to about 22 pints or say 12 litres.

 

[terrym]

Don't get me wrong here, I thoroughly enjoy my AG brewdays and am (personally) very happy with the beer I produce whilst enjoying them ... but, it riles me when I see comments like this ...

Whilst AG is definitely the way forward, the equipment cost upfront is something people don't have but they still want to brew and enjoy what they're doing. It's like buying a house, in the long term it's worth it, but when you're already paying a fortune in rent, how can you save up for the house.
... and this ...

You don't have to brew extract or AG with costly specialist equipment, many on here brew small volume stove top AG beers and others, including myself, brew partial mashes with grain and malt extract. In my case the only major investment I made to move away from kits was an 11 litre stockpot which was the largest size that would comfortably fit my hob, and I have no problem in brewing up to 20 litre batches with my set up. And the beauty is that you can pretty much brew what you want and you are not constrained by what's in the tin or box. That said AG and extract beers can consume anywhere from 2 -5 hours from start to finishing tidying up on brew day and that is a time luxury that many people don't have.

... on forums ... N.B. not having a go just at you @terrym and @Grizzly Notations, these are oft stated comments, which all too often don't go unquestioned, and my reason for posting is simply to remind forum members of the other (hidden) costs of extract and AG brewing

... because it's not just the extra equipment needed for Extract/AG brewing ... those "less than £10", "not much more" and "£20-£25" (or even up to £33 +P&P) estimates for AG, extract and kit brews are only considering the ingredients ... as wells as the extra equipment costs all of the increased energy costs of extract and AG brewing are virtually always excluded from these sorts of estimates ... and if you had to put a price on your (the brewer's) time, then the cost of spending the extra hour or two needed to produce your wort by extract brewing over kit-brewing, or the 2-4 hours extra again needed to produce a wort from grain, would almost definitely outweigh the increased costs of ingredients (even if you only paid yourself Minimum Wage )Cheers, PhilB

The original post was to just test how much people felt comfortable with spending on a beer kit and against that what they expected in return. Different people will have different perceptions as we are starting to find out.
When I replied to @Grizzly Notations as above, I was pointing out that you don't have to spend a lot of money on equipment to make non-kit beer as I indicated with my set up and that of others doing stove top brews, and so what I said is correct.
Next I challenge your implied comment that the energy costs for producing a brew can be significant. I can't speak for other people but looking at my brewday which involves using a kitchen kettle and a hob top I doubt if my energy consumption exceeds 3kw-h so the energy cost is of the order of 50/60p for approx 20 litres of beer.
However I do agree that if you have spent £££ on expensive kit then that should be factored into the cost of your beer. But given the small additional cost ( <£20 ) of my set up over that required for kit brewing that too is not a significant cost to be included over several brews. That said what price a hobby for most on here?
Finally I find charging out your time spent brewing that a little hard to understand. Whilst there are a small number on this forum who apparently make a living full or part time by brewing their beer and therefore probably need to charge their time, the vast majority do it for fun/as a hobby, although there will be a few who, no doubt, do it to brew beer cheaper than they can buy down the supermarket. But I did point out that spending between 2-5 hours brewing beer is a time luxury which some might not have (whether its charged or not), although those including me who are prepared to spend that time must consider it worthwhile or I guess they wouldn't do it.

 

[Hengoedbrewer]

Interesting thread.

I have only just moved into AG (BIAB) with one decent-good result, and one awfully disappointing one at the moment which I don't think is going to improve. When I started brewing I did a few kits, mix of single can as was, then with additions (Coopers kits) and finally some premium kits- a Festival London Porter which was alright, and an Evil Dog DIPA which I'd probably enjoy more now than I did then, Woodforde's Wherry and Admiral's Reserve, then moved into Extract- I only did two of those as neither were brilliant and I found DME ridiculously expensive.

I'm not on a budget as such, though I don't have masses of disposable to spend on brewing either. I've just paid £18 for all the ingredients for a 12L or so batch of BIAB all grain IPA (when it actually turns up........) which should in theory make a really nice beer- but then it is a MUCH longer brewday and I don't have a lot of spare time at all, so I have been thinking of doing the Young's American IPA kit as forum reviews of it make it sound right up my street and would be quick. Time is a bigger problem than money for me in general, though it might well be reverse for others.

It's all about what you have access to in times of time, equipment, and money I suppose. To me brewing is one of those things where there is no right or wrong way of doing it, so giving people realistic info on all aspects- cost and time wise vs kit and extract- will help them decide on how to progress their brewing, if they are thinking about it.I wouldn't have contemplated AG if it wasn't for the very old "have a go at simple AG" thread and all the ideas therein (including info on how cheap small batches could be done).

 

[ClownPrince]

Thought i'd drop my opinion in on here.
I'm relatively inexperienced and I see brewing as a progression, I started with kits and table sugar and i'm moving onto Partial/Mini Mash this year. I want to start doing All Grain but i'm not there yet and want to learn one thing at once rather than going all the way there in one leap.
I don't mind paying a bit more for a premium kit, I normally cut off at £25.00 or so but if there's something interesting sounding then i'd pay more. I'm going to do Dark Rock Brewing's Punk IPA clone soon which is £35.00.
It's still a pound a pint, which compared to £3.50 (minimum) for Punk IPA in bars that ain't bad.

Any £30 plus kit is typically something with a high ABV and potentially something a bit special, for example: https://www.lovebrewing.co.uk/founders-double-american-ipa-beerworks-craft-brewery-series/

But also look at what you get:

Kit Contains:

• 1 x 3kg IPA Malt
• 1 x 3kg Lager Malt
• 1 x 20g US West Coast
• 1 x 90g Summit Hops
• 1 x 90g Citra Hops
• 1 x 150g Priming Sugar

That's 6kg of malt, twice the amount you get in a Woodfordes / Muntons two can, and on top of that there's 180g of hops and some semi decent yeast.

This sounds like my kind of kit, make sure you let us know how it goes.

if you had to put a price on your (the brewer's) time, then the cost of spending the extra hour or two needed to produce your wort by extract brewing over kit-brewing, or the 2-4 hours extra again needed to produce a wort from grain, would almost definitely outweigh the increased costs of ingredients (even if you only paid yourself Minimum Wage )

Cheers, PhilB

I'm not sure about this argument, because in my limited experience of mashing, you're only actually working for a short while then you're leaving it alone for a while, working a little longer to prep the boil then mostly leaving it alone for another hour. In terms of actual activity time you're probably only actually doing anything for maybe 45 mins of the 2-4 hours you quoted. Don't mean to be argumentative, but it just seems a bit of a flakey argument.

 

[Rodcx500z]

I can see all sides of this, I am one of the lucky buggers retired I needed a hobby I chose brewing well I came back to it after 30 years (got sick of the boots stuff) compared to some hobbies ie remote controlled aircraft model railway even fishing, this is cheap if I spent as much on this as I did on carp fishing gear I would have a micro brewery now, I have spent 67 pounds youngs starter kit which included a pb an fv hydrometer strip temp thingy syphon tube and youngs apa kit I have added 2 fv's 2 pb's a biab 30L electric kettle (klarstein) all this for less than 300 pounds and I get to drink some great ale and some not so great, I agree you cannot count your time in any hobby' me I love it keeps me busy I have got to checking the weather forcast cos I brew outside if its nice get a brew on it's a pleasure doing it. next up for me is cornys and fridge can't wait enjoy your hobby guys and those with young kids get em involved you might just make a master brewer one day and their are some good lady brewers out there as well cheers

 

[woody1959]

I have always been happy with kits and I mostly use sub £20 ones.

I do favour Coopers kits, their Real ale, Cerveza and Canadian blonde kits produce drinkable brews and generally on Amazon you can get one of their kits plus 1kg brewing sugar for under £20 delivered the next day.

The original question posed was "What do you expect from it?" me? I expect a drinkable beer from them and that's what I generally get.

I haven't yet found a "bad" kit, I have found a "bad" me though...I'll explain, just recently I brewed a Youngs harvest pils kit, it really didn't turn out as expected but that wasn't the kits fault, that was mine because I fiddled and used a different yeast to the one that came with the kit.

Sometimes "tweaking" works other times it doesn't and there is only one way I know of finding out what "tweaks" work, with Coopers kits the only one I "tweak" is the real ale then I use Nottingham yeast instead of the supplied one as I find it gives it a slightly more rounded flavour, the other kits I use as is but with brewing sugar.

So there you have it, I don't expect gold label commercial quality from a £20 kit, I expect a drinkable beer for them, that's all, and that's what I get, after all that's why I brew it, I want to drink it, not make love to it.

 

[An Ankoù]

I can understand a beginner using a (liquid) kit and I can see why somebody who just wants to produce a consistent pint would do the same, but the minute you start wanting to "pimp" the kit or change it in any way then I think we're on the slippery slope to extract brewing and perhaps to partial mash and then all grain. I think many of us have followed this path out of curiosity or simply through wondering if we can make a satisfactory pint even better.
I recall that even though the malt extract in my day was diastatic, I never actually did a partial mash!

 

[pms67]

I have always been happy with kits and I mostly use sub £20 ones.

I do favour Coopers kits, their Real ale, Cerveza and Canadian blonde kits produce drinkable brews and generally on Amazon you can get one of their kits plus 1kg brewing sugar for under £20 delivered the next day.

The original question posed was "What do you expect from it?" me? I expect a drinkable beer from them and that's what I generally get.

I haven't yet found a "bad" kit, I have found a "bad" me though...I'll explain, just recently I brewed a Youngs harvest pils kit, it really didn't turn out as expected but that wasn't the kits fault, that was mine because I fiddled and used a different yeast to the one that came with the kit.

Sometimes "tweaking" works other times it doesn't and there is only one way I know of finding out what "tweaks" work, with Coopers kits the only one I "tweak" is the real ale then I use Nottingham yeast instead of the supplied one as I find it gives it a slightly more rounded flavour, the other kits I use as is but with brewing sugar.

So there you have it, I don't expect gold label commercial quality from a £20 kit, I expect a drinkable beer for them, that's all, and that's what I get, after all that's why I brew it, I want to drink it, not make love to it.

Good stuff mate but please try one of the Beerworks kits for £20 or a Young’s or Festival kit for around £22
You get all you need with these kits, sugar, hops and double the liquid malt extract, you will see a big difference

 

[stephen1546]

I started homebrewing when the Gov up here introduced minimum pricing per unit of alcohol, currently at 50p a unit. However after my first brew was a success which was a Youngs IPA , i was just delighted that i could make beer myself and the cost went flying out the window. I do however shop around online and you can get premuim kits on offer for around 20 quid. What you need to factor in is that most hobbies cost a little money and your 20 odd quid for a kit and the time which is spent fermenting/conditioning/obsessing etc is for me is excellent value for money.

 

[An Ankoù]

I started homebrewing when the Gov up here introduced minimum pricing per unit of alcohol, currently at 50p a unit. However after my first brew was a success which was a Youngs IPA , i was just delighted that i could make beer myself and the cost went flying out the window. I do however shop around online and you can get premuim kits on offer for around 20 quid. What you need to factor in is that most hobbies cost a little money and your 20 odd quid for a kit and the time which is spent fermenting/conditioning/obsessing etc is for me is excellent value for money.

Plus, you can offset the money you would otherwise spend in the pub against the cost of the kit. You might even be in profit!