Complete novice

[Ian1970]

Hi all and thanks for reading.
I have recently purchased my first cider kit, fermentation container (with tap), hydrometer, airlock, bung etc.
The kit is for an elderflower cider.
I have a number of questions;
This kit claims to just need water - everything else is already included.
Is there a way to increase the alcohol content to around 7 percent?
As the fermentation container already has a tap do I need to siphon it off into a second container and if so why?
What is a second fermentation? Some people seem to like this but some don't.
In the future I would like to move towards using fresh apples and creating my cider from scratch however
Where can I get apples (I'm based on the Surrey Hampshire border in the UK)
How do I know what variaty of apple I'm using if I find some trees on public land locally?
I'm also aware that I will need a machine to cut the apples and to press them. Any suggestions on reasonable price machines would be appreciated.
What are the advantages and disadvantages of using the apples without washing them first?
Lots and lots of questions I know but I am completely new to this so any help or advice really would be most welcome.

 

[Hagrid]

Some great questions there Ian.

One way to increase the ABV is to add additional sugar for the yeastie beasties to munch their way through. You can use your hydrometer to work our predicted ABV.

If you’re going to do a secondary fermentation you can either syphon it or use the tap on your FV (assuming it sits higher than the rubbish they will settle at the bottom (which it most likely will)) I do secondary to remove unwanted rubbish or bits I’ve added (like elderflowers)

I can’t really help you with sourcing apples. I trade ingredients for finished bottles. There’s a lady around the corner who gives me apples and plums in trade for cider and wine I make with it. Maybe speak to a local fruit and veg market stall and see if they get stuff that they’re going to throw out. They might reduce the price for you.

Most apples that are wild from people throwing cores away are quite tart, so getting a good mixture of eaters and bakers is always good. It’ll add complexity to your finished cider.

I built a cider press using a bottle jack which was fairly easy and cheap. It works really well. If you were closer you’d be welcome to borrow it. To scrat (smash them up) I have a rubber bucket and a bit of 4”x4” and it’s arm day in the gym of life.

If you want to use wild yeast (naturally occurring bacteria on pretty much all fruit) then you can just juice them a let nature do its thing or you can wash them (if you really want) and add a canpden tablet leave for 24hrs or so and then pitch your yeast. @freester has recently written a great bit on this in This thread

Hopefully that’s answered all your questions. There are many way ms to skin a cat when it come to homebrewing so have a play and enjoy.

 

[Ian1970]

Some great questions there Ian.

One way to increase the ABV is to add additional sugar for the yeastie beasties to munch their way through. You can use your hydrometer to work our predicted ABV.

If you’re going to do a secondary fermentation you can either syphon it or use the tap on your FV (assuming it sits higher than the rubbish they will settle at the bottom (which it most likely will)) I do secondary to remove unwanted rubbish or bits I’ve added (like elderflowers)

I can’t really help you with sourcing apples. I trade ingredients for finished bottles. There’s a lady around the corner who gives me apples and plums in trade for cider and wine I make with it. Maybe speak to a local fruit and veg market stall and see if they get stuff that they’re going to throw out. They might reduce the price for you.

Most apples that are wild from people throwing cores away are quite tart, so getting a good mixture of eaters and bakers is always good. It’ll add complexity to your finished cider.

I built a cider press using a bottle jack which was fairly easy and cheap. It works really well. If you were closer you’d be welcome to borrow it. To scrat (smash them up) I have a rubber bucket and a bit of 4”x4” and it’s arm day in the gym of life.

If you want to use wild yeast (naturally occurring bacteria on pretty much all fruit) then you can just juice them a let nature do its thing or you can wash them (if you really want) and add a canpden tablet leave for 24hrs or so and then pitch your yeast. @freester has recently written a great bit on this in This thread

Hopefully that’s answered all your questions. There are many way ms to skin a cat when it come to homebrewing so have a play and enjoy.

Hagrid
Thank you so much for the response. I really appreciate you time and all of the information

 

[freester]

Hi Ian looks like @Hagrid has answered most of your questions here's my thoughts...

As the fermentation container already has a tap do I need to siphon it off into a second container and if so why?

Good question probably unnecessary. I have FVs without taps so when I syphon it's impossible to not stir up some of the lees. Usually I will syphon, leave in secondary for at least a few weeks before bottling. I think myself and @MattH1973 have come to the conclusion any sediment will settle in the bottles you just may have a bit more if you don't do secondary. If you want a clear product pour carefully! I don't think leaving cider on the lees for any length of time (I leave my trad cider to ferment for 6 months) does any harm.

What is a second fermentation? Some people seem to like this but some don't.

The only secondary fermentation I'm aware of is a malolactic fermentation. In traditional cider making this occurs in the spring when cider warms back up. The malic acid is converted to lactic acid. No extra alcohol but takes the edge off the cider. Definitely worth waiting for!

In the future I would like to move towards using fresh apples and creating my cider from scratch however
Where can I get apples (I'm based on the Surrey Hampshire border in the UK)

My best advice is make contacts! You will find this time of year people with apple trees will have a glut of apples wanting to get rid of them! I am lucky to live in a village with a newsletter. I put a 'wanted' ad in there and my phone didn't stop ringing for 2 weeks!!! I have 4 go to orchards now gather as many apples as I want in exchange for juice and cider!

Suggest you place some ads in the local papers, shop noticeboards, Facebook buy and sell, gumtree etc I bet there is somewhere out there where they have waaay more apples than they can manage.

How do I know what variaty of apple I'm using if I find some trees on public land locally?

Identifying apples is not easy. If you get lucky maybe somewhere will have cider apples usually small and not the best eaters. If not go for a 30/70% cookers / eater mix. Cookers are easy to identify as they a bigger and very sharp. If it tastes nice to eat it's an eater. Cider apples are usually smaller and more bitter and are ready later in the season.

I'm also aware that I will need a machine to cut the apples and to press them. Any suggestions on reasonable price machines would be appreciated.
What are the advantages and disadvantages of using the apples without washing them first?
Lots and lots of questions I know but I am completely new to this so any help or advice really would be most welcome.

Scratting is the hard bit. Freezing and smashing works for small amounts. Personally I found an old garden shredder 2nd hand which does the job perfectly. @MattH1973 loves his 'Selections Apple Scratter' but they aren't showing in stock right now

 

[terrym]

There's a compromise between using kits and using apples. That's using shop bought apple juice. The product is known as Turbo cider or TC. Long thread here, but there are others,
https://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/threads/turbo-cider.57922And Crossmyloof will sell you some cider yeast with free postage
https://www.crossmyloofbrew.co.uk/online-store/Wine-Cider-Mead-Yeast-etc-p93773464

 

[Ian1970]

Hi Ian looks like @Hagrid has answered most of your questions here's my thoughts...



Good question probably unnecessary. I have FVs without taps so when I syphon it's impossible to not stir up some of the lees. Usually I will syphon, leave in secondary for at least a few weeks before bottling. I think myself and @MattH1973 have come to the conclusion any sediment will settle in the bottles you just may have a bit more if you don't do secondary. If you want a clear product pour carefully! I don't think leaving cider on the lees for any length of time (I leave my trad cider to ferment for 6 months) does any harm.



The only secondary fermentation I'm aware of is a malolactic fermentation. In traditional cider making this occurs in the spring when cider warms back up. The malic acid is converted to lactic acid. No extra alcohol but takes the edge off the cider. Definitely worth waiting for!


My best advice is make contacts! You will find this time of year people with apple trees will have a glut of apples wanting to get rid of them! I am lucky to live in a village with a newsletter. I put a 'wanted' ad in there and my phone didn't stop ringing for 2 weeks!!! I have 4 go to orchards now gather as many apples as I want in exchange for juice and cider!

Suggest you place some ads in the local papers, shop noticeboards, Facebook buy and sell, gumtree etc I bet there is somewhere out there where they have waaay more apples than they can manage.


Identifying apples is not easy. If you get lucky maybe somewhere will have cider apples usually small and not the best eaters. If not go for a 30/70% cookers / eater mix. Cookers are easy to identify as they a bigger and very sharp. If it tastes nice to eat it's an eater. Cider apples are usually smaller and more bitter and are ready later in the season.



Scratting is the hard bit. Freezing and smashing works for small amounts. Personally I found an old garden shredder 2nd hand which does the job perfectly. @MattH1973 loves his 'Selections Apple Scratter' but they aren't showing in stock right now

Freester - thank you so much for the comprehensive answer. Fantastic information.
Very much appreciated.

 

[Ian1970]

There's a compromise between using kits and using apples. That's using shop bought apple juice. The product is known as Turbo cider or TC. Long thread here, but there are others,
https://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/threads/turbo-cider.57922And Crossmyloof will sell you some cider yeast with free postage
https://www.crossmyloofbrew.co.uk/online-store/Wine-Cider-Mead-Yeast-etc-p93773464

Hi Terry - Thanks for that. I'll have a look at crossmyloof.

 

[Victor Churchill]

Only made cider once, years ago .. it was just using the windfalls from one tree in our garden. They were big green cookers, may be Bramleys, sour as b*ggery.

I would go pick up a bowl full of apples off the ground, cut the worst brown bits off, chuck 'em through a centrifugal juicer, put the resulting brown 'juice' into a demijohn with the same weight of sugar, put on a fermentation-lock, wait a few days for more apples, repeat. The 'natural' (airborne?) yeasts did their thing and off it went; I would add a couple of pints a few days later with more sugar from the next batch of apples I picked up.

When the DJ filled up I moved on to another one. After a while I racked each DJ into another one after it had thrown a shedload of stuff at the bottom. Then at the end of the season I racked all those DJs into a pressure barrel. Can't remember if I gave it any more sugar or not. Then left it for ages.

End result was still strikingly sour - had to drink it 50/50 with lemonade - but head-crackingly strong. And strangely pleasant and moor-ish.

 

[Ian1970]

Only made cider once, years ago .. it was just using the windfalls from one tree in our garden. They were big green cookers, may be Bramleys, sour as b*ggery.

I would go pick up a bowl full of apples off the ground, cut the worst brown bits off, chuck 'em through a centrifugal juicer, put the resulting brown 'juice' into a demijohn with the same weight of sugar, put on a fermentation-lock, wait a few days for more apples, repeat. The 'natural' (airborne?) yeasts did their thing and off it went; I would add a couple of pints a few days later with more sugar from the next batch of apples I picked up.

When the DJ filled up I moved on to another one. After a while I racked each DJ into another one after it had thrown a shedload of stuff at the bottom. Then at the end of the season I racked all those DJs into a pressure barrel. Can't remember if I gave it any more sugar or not. Then left it for ages.

End result was still strikingly sour - had to drink it 50/50 with lemonade - but head-crackingly strong. And strangely pleasant and moor-ish.

Thank Victor - it's very interesting hearing the diferente ways people do things to come to the same result.