CML yeast recommendation

[clib]

I've followed your investigations into yeast elsewhere and it's certainly made me think. I wonder whether you bottle or keg. While I'm (or was) perfectly happy to go to a beer festival and thoroughly enjoy most of the offerings from cask, I find that some of the more flavoursome yeasts don't suit bottling. Either, they continue to ferment very slowly resulting in overprimed bottles (and these are not diastaticus varieties, nor have I got an infection or it would be the same with all my yeasts) or, after they've been kept longer than they should, they develop a phenolic flavour which I seem to be particularly sensitive to.
I wonder whether "bitter" shouldn't be reserved for cask or filtered/pasteurised keg ales, and the bottled versions should be considered "pale ales" like in the old days. I can well imagine that some yeasts have developed that will nearly ferment out, but slow right down towards the end and that these are prized by cask brewers as the beer will stay in condition a little bit longer. Just my thoughts.
While it's off topic, I've got a fridge full of liquid yeasts including West Yorks and RIngwood that I really ought to get on and use before they go beyond resurrection. Trouble is, I tend to find a yeast I like and use it forever: The WhiteLabs French Ale WLP072 and the Wyeast Scottish 1728, I've kept going for years. The first one hasn't been around for a number of years and I'm glad I kept a dozen bottles of my first generation beer to grow it from.

I agree with all you say AA. Not all yeasts suit bottling. I avoid some, and leave some in the FV longer. I mostly bottle but I do have one corney and 3 plastic barrels, which I use from time to time. I prefer bottles, probably cos PBs are tricky and can't be fridged, and because I prefer naturally carbed beer to force carbed so I have found the corney is a bit redundant. my beer fridge is full of bottles... Maybe one day I will get a beer engine and use polypins or something. We can call beer in bottles whatever we want I think, bitter or pale ale etc. If I pour beer from a bottle into a jug and then to a glass it resembles cask ale, enough for me. I over carbonate a little in the bottle and then lose some. I suspect cask is like that? Carbonation is reduced by the release of pressure when a cask is tapped? You could well be right about cask brewers liking yeasts to keep nibbling away in the cask. West Yorks and Ringwood are good. Try them. 1728 too. I've not use 072 but I am about to bottle my 073 beer, if I can get off here! First use of it.

 

[marshbrewer]

Is MB Draught the same as Mauribrew 514? I've never seen MB Draught for sale.

No, I think that's Mauribrew Ale.

 

[The Baron]

I have been using Beoir yeast recently in Ale styles and it is good and drops clear

 

[YeastFace]

Edit - Already been mentioned.

 

[clib]

I have been using Beoir yeast recently in Ale styles and it is good and drops clear

Pretty clean I believe? But not like US-05 presumably? Nottingham ish maybe?

 

[marshbrewer]

It's fairly clean, but nice and ale like, if you get my meaning. Doesn't have that Notty bland "butterness". Co pitched with House, you get slightly fruity esters with decent flocculation.

 

[clib]

It's fairly clean, but nice and ale like, if you get my meaning. Doesn't have that Notty bland "butterness". Co pitched with House, you get slightly fruity esters with decent flocculation.

That sounds like a good combination.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

If you split a batch between US-05 and WLP001, the beers are different. 001 produces a richer malt profile. Not better - but different. I use liquid yeasts for saison because I don't get the same results from dried saison yeasts. not wrong or bad, I just like the ;liquid ones I've used. I think that dried yeast tends to improve when it is repitched as a fresh yeast.

To be fair, US-05 and WLP001 are not the same genetically - US-05 is in a Chico subgroup that includes Wyeast 1056 and Imperial A07 Flagship that have a mutation in BAT1 that has been fixed in the subgroup that includes WLP001. And all of them have lost a copy of chromosome V compared to the original BRY-96 and its close relatives like Imperial A18 Joystick.

But you'll soon be able to compare like-for-like as dried WLP001 is on its way anytime soon. And that link has a good comparison of the relative advantages of wet and dry yeast, which includes more muted flavours and poorer flocculation due to the stress of being dried, which isn't the case when you repitch obviously.

 

[clib]

To be fair, US-05 and WLP001 are not the same genetically - US-05 is in a Chico subgroup that includes Wyeast 1056 and Imperial A07 Flagship that have a mutation in BAT1 that has been fixed in the subgroup that includes WLP001. And all of them have lost a copy of chromosome V compared to the original BRY-96 and its close relatives like Imperial A18 Joystick.

But you'll soon be able to compare like-for-like as dried WLP001 is on its way anytime soon. And that link has a good comparison of the relative advantages of wet and dry yeast, which includes more muted flavours and poorer flocculation due to the stress of being dried, which isn't the case when you repitch obviously.

Thanks. I know they are not identical but not the details. Are there any like for like wet and dry yeasts other than 001?
Weihenstephan?
Abbaye/Chimay?
Munich Classic?
New England/Conan?

The drying process obviously changes them.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Thanks. I know they are not identical but not the details. Are there any like for like wet and dry yeasts other than 001?

The only direct comparison I can think of is Omega's clean kveik Lutra which is available in wet and dry form. Or a second generation of a dried yeast....

Then there's a couple of cases where different companies have isolated a strain from the same source, but they will never be *quite* the same - Lallemand's Voss, their New England is a Conan (but it hates being dried so viability is lousy), 34/70 has various wet counterparts like WLP830. Munich Classic is very close to 3068. And then you have the more distant counterparts, like Verdant started off as 1318 but changed whilst being repitched at Verdant before it was captured by Lallemand.

 

[clib]

The only direct comparison I can think of is Omega's clean kveik Lutra which is available in wet and dry form. Or a second generation of a dried yeast....

Then there's a couple of cases where different companies have isolated a strain from the same source, but they will never be *quite* the same - Lallemand's Voss, their New England is a Conan (but it hates being dried so viability is lousy), 34/70 has various wet counterparts like WLP830. Munich Classic is very close to 3068. And then you have the more distant counterparts, like Verdant started off as 1318 but changed whilst being repitched at Verdant before it was captured by Lallemand.

I read somewhere that someone at Lallaland told someone's cousin on whatsapp that Abbaye is dried Chimay. Or something. Lallemand seems to target key strains, like Conan, London III, Chimay perhaps. For obvious commercial reasons. It can't say so but it can leak it, or wait for someone to analyse it.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I read somewhere that someone at Lallaland told someone's cousin on whatsapp that Abbaye is dried Chimay.

Yeah, Abbaye, WLP500 Monastery and 1214 Belgian Abbey are a distinctive group as they're all cerevisiae x kudriavzevii hybrids. Again, they may well represent separate isolations and mutational histories from a common ancestor so don't think of them as the same thing, or as definitively "the" "Chimay" yeast.

 

[clib]

Yeah, Abbaye, WLP500 Monastery and 1214 Belgian Abbey are a distinctive group as they're all cerevisiae x kudriavzevii hybrids.

That's the one. Iirc the strain Is derived from oak trees. Father Jack isolated it I think. Or was it Father Theodore?

500/1214/Abbaye are probably different mutations, but then who isn't? Lallemand seem to grab yeast from breweries. Maybe they went direct to Chimay. Or another brewery that was using yeast that originated from Chimay.

 

[An Ankoù]

I think that dried yeast tends to improve when it is repitched as a fresh yeast.

That's my finding, too. I've often wondered whether it's because I'm pitching more yeast or for some other reason. I generally don't repitch after the third generation, but I've noticed that, with some strains, flocculation deteriorates the more the yeast is reused.

 

[An Ankoù]

I’m pretty sure their California Common is the same as MJ M54. I haven’t done any direct comparisons and have used both at different times and got the same results. Great for fermenting a good clean lager at 19 degrees.

I'm not so sure about that. I use MJ-M54 quite a lot, but it has quite a narrow ideal temperature range of 18-20C. I wanted to do a similar brew at a cooler temperature and chose CML Cali Common whose ideal range is 14-23. The characteristics were quite different: the CML was sulphurous, whlle I've never had the whiff of Hades from M54. To be fair, the teperature difference might have something to do with it so, as I've got five sachets left, I'll try it at the higher temperature, but I'm keeping an open mind for the moment. The M54 had a rounder, smoother finish, but again, that may be due to the temperature differenceas as well as using Nectaron hops in the one and Wai-iti in the other. Nectaron isn't so-called for nothing!
@Benfleet Brewery , would you be willing to share your warm lager recipe? While I'm happy with my formulation, it's more like a light, summer ale (which suits me perfectly) and I'd like to try a "crisper" alternative.

 

[clib]

That's my finding, too. I've often wondered whether it's because I'm pitching more yeast or for some other reason. I generally don't repitch after the third generation, but I've noticed that, with some strains, flocculation deteriorates the more the yeast is reused.

Re-pitching soon after harvests provide a the benefit of freshness which much be a big bonus. Dried yeast first use is recovering from the drying process and a period of 'stasis. By the end of fermentation is must have recovered to some extent, by generating new cells that haven't been stressed and laid dormant.

Some yeasts I seem to be able to repitch often without issues. Others deteriorate at some point. My rudimentary knowledge and technique probably contributes but WLP644 and WLP3711 have both survived me for a long time, both Belgian origin liquid strains. I've had similar success with US05 in the past. 001 seems ok after a year. It seemed to me that Verdant became more flavoursome after the first pitch, more stone fruit. Verdant is great for top cropping and the top cropped yeast is good vibrant stuff. Clipper may be the same/similar. English strains seem volatile thiugh generally speaking, likely to change in undesirable ways. I've had them go murky and even throw banana in the past like a hefe yeast or something.

People must be re-pitching CML yeasts? Or does the price mean people don't bother? Maybe you miss out if you don't repitch. I think you do on the whole, there's benefit to be had beyond cost savings.

 

[marshbrewer]

Feel like I want to try and make a starter with a dry yeast, not for viability, but to allow the cells to get over dehydration in the starter wort rather than my lovingly prepared actual wort? I know this flies in the face of what we are told is "modern thinking" but much of the research on this appears to be focused around viability rather than taste (which is fair enough as its more subjective).

 

[Benfleet Brewery]

I'm not so sure about that. I use MJ-M54 quite a lot, but it has quite a narrow ideal temperature range of 18-20C. I wanted to do a similar brew at a cooler temperature and chose CML Cali Common whose ideal range is 14-23. The characteristics were quite different: the CML was sulphurous, whlle I've never had the whiff of Hades from M54. To be fair, the teperature difference might have something to do with it so, as I've got five sachets left, I'll try it at the higher temperature, but I'm keeping an open mind for the moment. The M54 had a rounder, smoother finish, but again, that may be due to the temperature differenceas as well as using Nectaron hops in the one and Wai-iti in the other. Nectaron isn't so-called for nothing!
@Benfleet Brewery , would you be willing to share your warm lager recipe? While I'm happy with my formulation, it's more like a light, summer ale (which suits me perfectly) and I'd like to try a "crisper" alternative.

Oh that’s odd. I’ve never had any sulphur issues when using CML Cali. In fact, the only yeast I’ve ever got any sulphur from is CML Hell but even that went by the time I came to keg it.

The most recent time I use CML Cali was in a Kazbek lager that I made in January. I can see from my notes that this was fermented ant 17.5 C as the brew fridge I used for this only has an 7w reptile heat mat in it so it couldn’t get above this temperature in January.
Oddly, I have recently sent a bottle to @dave_77 to try. He may be able to offer better feedback. It may be crap but I’m not really that fussy with beer

The recipe I used in in my brew day thread here:

https://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/threads/benfleet-brewery-brewdays.101160/#post-1196332

 

[Benfleet Brewery]

Re-pitching soon after harvests provide a the benefit of freshness which much be a big bonus. Dried yeast first use is recovering from the drying process and a period of 'stasis. By the end of fermentation is must have recovered to some extent, by generating new cells that haven't been stressed and laid dormant.

Some yeasts I seem to be able to repitch often without issues. Others deteriorate at some point. My rudimentary knowledge and technique probably contributes but WLP644 and WLP3711 have both survived me for a long time, both Belgian origin liquid strains. I've had similar success with US05 in the past. 001 seems ok after a year. It seemed to me that Verdant became more flavoursome after the first pitch, more stone fruit. Verdant is great for top cropping and the top cropped yeast is good vibrant stuff. Clipper may be the same/similar. English strains seem volatile thiugh generally speaking, likely to change in undesirable ways. I've had them go murky and even throw banana in the past like a hefe yeast or something.

People must be re-pitching CML yeasts? Or does the price mean people don't bother? Maybe you miss out if you don't repitch. I think you do on the whole, there's benefit to be had beyond cost savings.

I’ve re pitched CML yeasts on a few occasions but only by dumping the next brew on some of the previous slurry, and not re pitched on the same more than once.
I’ve done this with their Four, Five, Pia and Hell. Never repitched on Clipper but only because the beers I make with this yeast end up with a lot of hop matter left in the FV.

 

[An Ankoù]

Oh that’s odd. I’ve never had any sulphur issues when using CML Cali. In fact, the only yeast I’ve ever got any sulphur from is CML Hell but even that went by the time I came to keg it.

Similarly it was the fermentation that ponged a bit. It didn't carry across to the beer at bottling time. The difference is that I fermented mine at 12-13C maybe that stressed the yeast a bit.
Never had an issue with Hell and I haven't tried Clipper yet.