Climate change.

[Chippy_Tea]

Posts moved here from the war thread.

 

[Clarence]

Just nuke the muthas. It's the only thing they understand.
And don't go bleating on about the future of humanity, nobody gives a toss about that anyway, as can be seen by everyone's reluctance to do anything about the climate.
Just stock up with HB ingredients, hunker down and ride out the storm. The gods will surely smile on us brewers.

 

[Erik The Anglophile]

Just nuke the muthas. It's the only thing they understand.
And don't go bleating on about the future of humanity, nobody gives a toss about that anyway, as can be seen by everyone's reluctance to do anything about the climate.
Just stock up with HB ingredients, hunker down and ride out the storm. The gods will surely smile on us brewers.

I hope you live near a big city with industrial assets so your death will atleast be quick and painless.

 

[Clarence]

I hope you live near a big city with industrial assets so your death will atleast be quick and painless.

Or slowly starve as the seas no longer support edible fish and most of Europe turns to dessert and populations migrate to cooler climes like yours to take them by force of numbers and of arms. Am I wrong?
Russia's invasion of Ukraine is monstrous, but at the end of the day it's a distraction from where the ball really lies.

 

[Erik The Anglophile]

None of that is going to happen in our lifetime.
I am concerned aswell about our impact and influence on the climactic cycles, but you have to understand that peddling climate fear is a multi billion dollar bussiness.

 

[Clarence]

None of that is going to happen in our lifetime.
I am concerned aswell about our impact and influence on the climactic cycles, but you have to understand that peddling climate fear is a multi billion dollar bussiness.

While I respect your sentiments, Eric, I think you're mistaken. I'm not a young man and I would not be surprised to see these things happen in my lifetime I hope you're right and I'm wrong, but even so: what about our kids' and grandkids' lifetimes.
"peddling climate fear"? Sounds a lot like "project fear" during the Brexit debates. I don't think need say any more about that. The multibillion dollar business is lobbying by fossil fuel groups, farmers groups, anti-nuclear power, automobile and aviation industry etc etc. Where are the big bucks being spent peddling climate fear??? Why? By whom? I think you're making it up.
Not in our lifetime? It's already happening!

Uncomfortable, isn't it!

 

[Erik The Anglophile]

Most hardcore environmentalists are against nuclear power, and farmers wanting more focus on domestically grown and eaten foods is good for the climate, yes?
Have you never wondered why all these people who are alarmists about climate change fly their private jets to the seminars? Why so many products are green washed? And who but those "benevolent" oligarchs who sell those products and hold seminars also own all the media you consume?
Climate change is real, yes, but beware alarmists and doomsday Prophets, and those willing to rule by fear..

 

[Clarence]

Most hardcore environmentalists are against nuclear power, and farmers wanting more focus on domestically grown and eaten foods is good for the climate, yes?
Have you never wondered why all these people who are alarmists about climate change fly their private jets to the seminars? Why so many products are green washed? And who but those "benevolent" oligarchs who sell those products and hold seminars also own all the media you consume?
Climate change is real, yes, but beware alarmists and doomsday Prophets, and those willing to rule by fear..

I'm sorry to be blunt, but you're talking nonsense.
Many environmentalists are not against nuclear power. Issues relating to disposal and containment of nuclear waste are real, the continued burning of fossil fuels presents much more immediate dangers. Guess who's lobbying!
Farmers / domestically grown foods / good for the planet: No. the carbon footprint for transport is reduced a bit, but the farming itself is a problem. Clearing land for cereals, most of which are used to feed livestock is a real problem. The livestock themselves present their own problems. What you don't seem to understand is that there are too many of us. When I was born, the population of the world was 2.7 billion people. Today it's 8 billion. More landis needed to grow the crops to provide the cornflakes and beefburgers to feed this lot. 8 billion may or may not be sustainable, but when does growth become unsustainable? Linked to this is the concept of economic growth, if a country's economy doesn't grow then it falls into recession and loses the advantages afforded by the global financial institutions. It's pyramid selling! How can economies continue to grow and grow, using limited resources before the bubble bursts? Do you think it's ad infinitum?
You talk about private jets which are used by ALL alarmists. Greenwashing is certainly a fact, but one that doesn't support your argument. You talk about "all the media I consume" as if I didn't survey enough of the media and internationally to be beyond the reach of your benevolent oligarchs. You seem to understand nothing.. Why not read something on the subject? Naess isn't too far from you in Norway, he might seem a bit New Age today but Tännsjö, recent chair of philosophy at Stockholm uni, speaks well of him, then you might go a bit further afield and begin to get a grip on the niche subject of humanity surviving its own excesses. But please don't drivel on about doomsday prophets.

 

[dad_of_jon]

I'm sorry to be blunt, but you're talking nonsense.
Many environmentalists are not against nuclear power. Issues relating to disposal and containment of nuclear waste are real, the continued burning of fossil fuels presents much more immediate dangers. Guess who's lobbying!
Farmers / domestically grown foods / good for the planet: No. the carbon footprint for transport is reduced a bit, but the farming itself is a problem. Clearing land for cereals, most of which are used to feed livestock is a real problem. The livestock themselves present their own problems. What you don't seem to understand is that there are too many of us. When I was born, the population of the world was 2.7 billion people. Today it's 8 billion. More landis needed to grow the crops to provide the cornflakes and beefburgers to feed this lot. 8 billion may or may not be sustainable, but when does growth become unsustainable? Linked to this is the concept of economic growth, if a country's economy doesn't grow then it falls into recession and loses the advantages afforded by the global financial institutions. It's pyramid selling! How can economies continue to grow and grow, using limited resources before the bubble bursts? Do you think it's ad infinitum?
You talk about private jets which are used by ALL alarmists. Greenwashing is certainly a fact, but one that doesn't support your argument. You talk about "all the media I consume" as if I didn't survey enough of the media and internationally to be beyond the reach of your benevolent oligarchs. You seem to understand nothing.. Why not read something on the subject? Naess isn't too far from you in Norway, he might seem a bit New Age today but Tännsjö, recent chair of philosophy at Stockholm uni, speaks well of him, then you might go a bit further afield and begin to get a grip on the niche subject of humanity surviving its own excesses. But please don't drivel on about doomsday prophets.

the economic growth model is like a ponzi scheme with the earth paying the price, but how can economies drift away from this model whilst improving quality of life for all. line the marketeers and advertizing people that create demand through desire?

 

[Erik The Anglophile]

You can "survey media" all you want but the fact is still that free media does not exist outside of a few citizen journalists.

All media houses are tied to holdings entangled in other big finance, the people who own the world also control what you read.

 

[Erik The Anglophile]

And that bit about farming being bad, just because the 3rd world is unable to stop their rapid population growth we should stop eating and not focus on locally grown produce?
That's nonsense from you.

 

[Erik The Anglophile]

the economic growth model is a bit ponzi scheme with the earth paying the price, but how can economies drift away from this model whilst improving quality of life for all. line the marketeers and advertizing people that create demand through desire?

 

[Clarence]

You can "survey media" all you want but the fact is still that free media does not exist outside of a few citizen journalists.

All media houses are tied to holdings entangled in other big finance, the people who own the world also control what you read.

Your point being?
In fact I control what I read. Do you mean these "people who own the world" control what I think?

And that bit about farming being bad, just because the 3rd world is unable to stop their rapid population growth we should stop eating and not focus on locally grown produce?
That's nonsense from you.

Many so called 3rd world countries (what's Your definition of 3rd world?) have had a higher population growth than average. What has that got to do with the people of Sweden eating and focusing on locally grown produce? Many of them are starving. Does Sweden send loads of its stuff to the Third World? Most of the 3 W countries' GDP is spent paying off debt, which can never be paid off. Many of these countries resources are being ravaged by the richer countries. Do you know why their population growth is higher than average? Again, what's your point?

My point is that we cannot continue to expand. Indeed we need to contract. In the 80s when Naess started writing about this he thought leaders and citizens would be sensible, recognise the need for contraction and, with a bit of luck, the world's population would contract consensually. A hippy dreamer, you might retort. I might as well, from a man who among his vast output wrote an explanation of Einstein's theories for non-mathematicians! But we're never going to consent to contract the world population so either Putin's going to have to thin us out or Katla and her bigger sisters are going to have to let off some steam or Covid Apocalypse Edition is going to need to swing his scythe.
Or. Do you, in all honesty, believe that we can continue as we're going now with impunity. If you do then say so. You might add why you think so, but that's up to you.

 

[Brew_DD2]

World population is near its peak. Combination of reduced birth rate, and one-child policy will see The West and China's population to decline big-time in the coming decades, with all the demographic challenges that brings. Africa will see the biggest population growth in the coming 50 years, but it won't be anywhere near enough to sustain the growth trajectory we saw due to China and India.

Education and a burgeoning middle-class 8n developing countries will sort out overpopulation.

 

[Erik The Anglophile]

@Clarence
While on the whole I agree with your sentiment, I think your assesion raises some important questions.
It is not countries per se that plunder the 3rd world, with the exception of French thinly veiled neo-colonialism in West Africa. It is large international mega-corporations with the help of politicians in their pockets and corrupt tin pot dictators, human greed knows no colour.
Their growth rate wich is not "slightly above average" but rather explosion like, is fueled by poverty and low education, and I think their dictators and board members in said finances are happy to keep it that way. Then they have a never ending farm for cheap labour to exploit until automation makes them and us a liability.

And the people who own all this are also entangled in media of all forms, those are who I mean with the people who own the world, virtually everything you see around you is owned by a very small number of people.
Using this enormous influence they push different, often contradicting narratives, such as populations declining in the west wich is true, but that should be good for the climate, but they also advocate for borderless, unregulated immigration wich for me sort of makes 1+1=3.
And the need for reducing environmental impact, while also using control over media to push the indoctrination that you must consume to be happy, wich I think many of us are susceptible to due to the need to fill a hole in the souls of us living in the post-modern neo-capitalist world.
And I have no solution, the world is becoming overcrowded, but are you the one with the authority to decide who gets to live and who must die?

 

[An Ankoù]

Or slowly starve as the seas no longer support edible fish and most of Europe turns to dessert and populations migrate to cooler climes like yours to take them by force of numbers and of arms. Am I wrong?
Russia's invasion of Ukraine is monstrous, but at the end of the day it's a distraction from where the ball really lies.

I don't think you're wrong, @Clarence . I'm equally worried by the "non-negotiable American way of life". The Americans aren't going to compromise their God-given right to continue to exploit the Earth's resources when they know absolutely that the Lord will continue to provide.
Nope. Climate disaster is inevitable and imminent.

 

[An Ankoù]

Your point being?
In fact I control what I read. Do you mean these "people who own the world" control what I think?

Many so called 3rd world countries (what's Your definition of 3rd world?) have had a higher population growth than average. What has that got to do with the people of Sweden eating and focusing on locally grown produce? Many of them are starving. Does Sweden send loads of its stuff to the Third World? Most of the 3 W countries' GDP is spent paying off debt, which can never be paid off. Many of these countries resources are being ravaged by the richer countries. Do you know why their population growth is higher than average? Again, what's your point?

My point is that we cannot continue to expand. Indeed we need to contract. In the 80s when Naess started writing about this he thought leaders and citizens would be sensible, recognise the need for contraction and, with a bit of luck, the world's population would contract consensually. A hippy dreamer, you might retort. I might as well, from a man who among his vast output wrote an explanation of Einstein's theories for non-mathematicians! But we're never going to consent to contract the world population so either Putin's going to have to thin us out or Katla and her bigger sisters are going to have to let off some steam or Covid Apocalypse Edition is going to need to swing his scythe.
Or. Do you, in all honesty, believe that we can continue as we're going now with impunity. If you do then say so. You might add why you think so, but that's up to you.

You're wasting your breath my lad. Your reference to Einstein is very appropriate; look up the (probably apocryphal) quote attributed to Einstein on the two things which are infinite. I alluded to this some months ago, but no-one got it.
You'd give yourself an easier job trying to talk round Jehovah's Witnesses!
To answer Eric's last question, only An Ankoù's master has that authority!

 

[Erik The Anglophile]

Ah yes, because if you question anything around this you are a climate change denier.
Have I once said we are not wrecking our earth? Have I once said this perpetual growth is sustainable?
May I respectfully urge you to get off your high horses.

 

[An Ankoù]

Ah yes, because if you question anything around this you are a climate change denier.
Have I once said we are not wrecking our earth? Have I once said this perpetual growth is sustainable?
May I respectfully urge you to get off your high horses.

I don't think that was the issue, Eric, you don't come across as a denier. Your exchange with @Clarence seemed to indicate that you thought the consequences would be much delayed and that we wouldn't be seeing them in our lifetimes. He, (and I) believe the problem to be much more immediate, but you dismiss this as the manipulations of the dodgy owners of international newspaper groups. I think I've got that right.
Anyway, I'll leave you to the tender mercies of Clarence as I'd resolved not to get involved in these circular discussions.

 

[Erik The Anglophile]

Well I will not engage in it further aswell as it is, as you say, merely a circular argument.
And besides that this is not the right thread for it.