Classic Band Aid/Medicinal Problem

[pilgrimhudd]

I kept my infected bottles, gave them a good wash obviously, so far so good.

 

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

Bon Courage!

 

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

A late thought on this: I don’t know how ‘stable’ the water supply is in your area? I have heard that in some areas the local supply company sometimes takes their water from a different source for a few days... I’ve no idea whether that kind of effect could have such a dramatic impact In terms of your water treatment regime; just thinking things through in terms of factors that could have such an all-or-nothing effect

 

[Richard_H]

Sorry to hijack the thread but I am in a similar position but mine is still fermenting and only been doing so for 6 days. After a disaster brew day which lead to a ripped brew bag, spilt wort and a few mistakes under pressure the pre pitching sample tasted very sweet as expected. Curiosity got the better of me and a took a small sample 3 days after pitching the yeast and it tasted awful! with a strong chemical taste lingering, panic mode has set in and I took another sample from the tap 2 days ago and another just now.

At first I thought its due to the yeast still being very active and this being my first brew with very basic water treatment (1/2 a campden & 25ml AMS) the latest sample does show the taste is slowly improving but something is still there, and in the small sample there were larger than normal clumps of white yeast. They did sink almost instantly but is this another sign of an infection?

Currently sat at 1.020 and started at 1.060, using MJ M47 Abbaye so expecting it to drop to the 1.010 range slowly as temperature has been held at 20 degrees for a few days now after pitching it at 24.

Do I be patient and have faith that after 2-3 weeks fermenting and bottle conditioning time this will come good or do I admit defeat 6 days in? Would be gutted as the grain bill was very complex but this would be my first ruined batch

 

[An Ankoù]

Do I be patient and have faith that after 2-3 weeks fermenting and bottle conditioning time this will come good or do I admit defeat 6 days in? Would be gutted as the grain bill was very complex but this would be my first ruined batch

If it's chlorinated or infected, it'll never get better, but Abbey yeasts produce phenols as a matter of course so it might be ok. Let it run its course and see what it tastes like when fermentation is complete.

 

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

Do I be patient and have faith that after 2-3 weeks fermenting and bottle conditioning time this will come good or do I admit defeat 6 days in? Would be gutted as the grain bill was very complex but this would be my first ruined batch

Have faith and keep your fingers crossed. You have nothing to lose by waiting...

 

[Snrub]

@Richard_H - there's little to be gained from tasting 6 days into a fermentation and not much here to suggest you have the same problem. Especially with an Abbey yeast, which will produce all sorts at different stages of fermentation.

If the taste improved perceptibly from day 3 to 5 then I'll cross my fingers your beer will turn out OK, and only offer the advice that you don't need to be sampling your wort through fermentation. Let it do it's thing, then judge!

 

[Snrub]

@The-Engineer-That-Brews - it's an interesting thought re: the water supply, and I only have a 2 year old water report to go on to estimate with, but I'd have thought it'd be a huge change to make such a big effect. Maybe I'm underestimating the impact of water treatment, but I always consider that to be about marginal gains rather than the difference between a great beer and drain cleaner!

 

[Snrub]

@strange-steve or anyone else with an insight - is there a recommended concentration for the bleach clean? Should I scrub with a bleach solution, soak the FV's, or both?

 

[An Ankoù]

@The-Engineer-That-Brews - it's an interesting thought re: the water supply, and I only have a 2 year old water report to go on to estimate with, but I'd have thought it'd be a huge change to make such a big effect. Maybe I'm underestimating the impact of water treatment, but I always consider that to be about marginal gains rather than the difference between a great beer and drain cleaner!

On the contrary. If there's any chlorine or chloramide in the water it'll react with the hops during the boil and produce an off flavour with a very low detection threshold. It may be that most days the water supply is clear of chlorine and then the water company will give the system a blasting to flush out the system. That's certainly the case here, where, 9 times out of 10 I can make a cup of tea with the tap water and the tenth time it's undrinkable. If I go back and draw some fresh water, I can smell the chlorine in it. The point of all this is that I always treat tap water with metabisulphite whether I can smell chlorine or not.

 

[The-Engineer-That-Brews]

@strange-steve or anyone else with an insight - is there a recommended concentration for the bleach clean? Should I scrub with a bleach solution, soak the FV's, or both?

I don’t have the book to hand, but I think in the most recent edition of Wheeler and Protz it talks about bleach concentration and the problem that so few of the ’supermarket’ bleaches actually give you the details of what is in them... for that reason I think he recommends Domestos as being one brand that does. I’ll look up the section later

 

[foxbat]

I don’t have the book to hand, but I think in the most recent edition of Wheeler and Protz it talks about bleach concentration and the problem that so few of the ’supermarket’ bleaches actually give you the details of what is in them... for that reason I think he recommends Domestos as being one brand that does. I’ll look up the section later

They do. It's on the label. Thin bleach is around 1% sodium hypochlorite. Thick is between 4.5 to 4.7%.

Personally, after losing a batch to the TCP taint about 4 years ago I will never touch a chlorine based cleaner, or a container material that absorbs it ever again.

PBW is my cleaner and Starsan and UVC light are my sterilisers. All containers are SS and pipes are Valpar Brewmaster 2.

 

[strange-steve]

@strange-steve or anyone else with an insight - is there a recommended concentration for the bleach clean? Should I scrub with a bleach solution, soak the FV's, or both?

For thorough disinfection you want approximately a 0.1% sodium hypochlorite solution, so the dilution will depend on the concentration which will be on the label. For thin bleach at 1% it would be about 110ml in 1L of water, for thick bleach at 5% it'd be about 20ml in 1L of water. Contact time should be at least 5 mins.

 

[Richie_asg1]

Is it possible that it is a bacterial infection that is taking advantage of a stuck fermentation? Maybe not completely stuck, but slowed down enough by a few cold days or maybe a sudden spike in temperature- enough to kill some yeast or at least make it inactive. At an elevated temperature the result would be worse as the bacterial count could quickly outstrip that of the yeast in competition for the sugars.

I would think cleaning everything is the first step, but after that maybe stick a max-min thermometer next to it or use some form of temperature control on it to keep the yeast as happy as possible.

 

[Pennine]

After all this talk about band aids I forgot to add a camden yesterday... hopefully the 5l of tap in 28l total won't affect it.

I read an article about it and it mentioned if it's a wild yeast or bacteria infection it likely will get worse as time goes on. Might be worth sampling it over a couple days or weeks to see if it worsend and you can isolate the problem that way.

 

[matt76]

Hey @Snrub ,

A few thoughts from me:

Where do you get your water from, I mean how do you get it into your mash tun or kettle? Specifically, do you use a regular green garden hose? I heard or read somewhere from Experimental Brewing that green garden hose can introduce off flavours.

As others have said, definitely replace your plastic tubing - I've had issues previously and this is one area I strongly suspect to be the culprit.

Another suspect area was building yeast starters from harvested slurry. It sometimes worked fine but sometimes didn't so difficult to know if this was my issue.

Bottles - I feel your pain at the thought of cleaning 100+ bottles. FWIW I've also had issues with clean bottles that turned out to be less clean them I thought. My procedure now is rinse thoroughly after pouring (obvs!), then 5ml thin bleach per bottle and top up with hot water and leave to stand - is surprising how much crud there is around the neck and shoulders of some bottles! Rinse thoroughly then Starsan before putting away for reuse.

Best of luck getting it sorted

 

[Sandimas]

I've gone back to bleach (Domestos): a decent squirt into the FV, 20L or so, used it to clean the FVs, syphoning equipment and bottles. Well rinsed afterwards. I've done this the last 3 brews, using fairly old FVs and recycled bottles, all at least 5-6 years old.

No discernible taste in the beer, the bottled and FVs look the cleanest they've ever looked, and I've no gushers yet, so we'll see. A bit more faff than normal sanitisers but I'm happy with that if it saves my beers.

 

[Snrub]

Hey @Snrub ,

A few thoughts from me:

Where do you get your water from, I mean how do you get it into your mash tun or kettle? Specifically, do you use a regular green garden hose? I heard or read somewhere from Experimental Brewing that green garden hose can introduce off flavours.

As others have said, definitely replace your plastic tubing - I've had issues previously and this is one area I strongly suspect to be the culprit.

Another suspect area was building yeast starters from harvested slurry. It sometimes worked fine but sometimes didn't so difficult to know if this was my issue.

Bottles - I feel your pain at the thought of cleaning 100+ bottles. FWIW I've also had issues with clean bottles that turned out to be less clean them I thought. My procedure now is rinse thoroughly after pouring (obvs!), then 5ml thin bleach per bottle and top up with hot water and leave to stand - is surprising how much crud there is around the neck and shoulders of some bottles! Rinse thoroughly then Starsan before putting away for reuse.

Best of luck getting it sorted

Although my setup is down a flight of stairs from the house to the garage, I take water straight from the tap and carry it down in a sanitised FV. Day after brewing, I can barely move I'm that stiff with pain!

Sounds like I need to buy a few bottles of Domestos this week. Nice one, cheers.

 

[strange-steve]

Sounds like I need to buy a few bottles of Domestos this week. Nice one, cheers.

Make sure you get the unperfumed stuff. I actually get the Asda smart price thin bleach, perfect for this sort of thing.

 

[Snrub]

Wow, they have perfumed bleach? I always thought bleach just smelled like bleach!