Cider - Racking Time / Clearing vs Carbonation

[freester]

OK. There's been a few threads where the discussion has veered off topic slightly on to the discussion of if you let a racked cider clear too long when you bottle and add some priming sugar it might not carbonate due to the yeast dying or settling to the bottom.

I just thought it would be good to start a new thread about it specifically. Should make it easier to find / search.

My experience from my one full cycle of cider making was this:

Cider I bottled for Xmas (racked off in November probably had 2-3 weeks in secondary after racking) carbonated nicely (1/2 teaspoon in 660ml bottles).

The rest of the cider I left in secondary all winter, bottled in May. Exactly the same as above - this did not carbonate.

Andrew Lea's cider.org.uk website (and a few other sources) is pretty clear that racking will slow down fermentation if you rack before cider is dry.

I bottled some cider last night. It had 3-4 weeks in secondary. Was very clear, very few lees at the bottom of the vessel. Usual 1/2tsp per 660ml bottle. I guess we'll see if it carbonates!

 

[Buddybudd]

OK. There's been a few threads where the discussion has veered off topic slightly on to the discussion of if you let a racked cider clear too long when you bottle and add some priming sugar it might not carbonate due to the yeast dying or settling to the bottom.

I just thought it would be good to start a new thread about it specifically. Should make it easier to find / search.

My experience from my one full cycle of cider making was this:

Cider I bottled for Xmas (racked off in November probably had 2-3 weeks in secondary after racking) carbonated nicely (1/2 teaspoon in 660ml bottles).

The rest of the cider I left in secondary all winter, bottled in May. Exactly the same as above - this did not carbonate.

Andrew Lea's cider.org.uk website (and a few other sources) is pretty clear that racking will slow down fermentation if you rack before cider is dry.

I bottled some cider last night. It had 3-4 weeks in secondary. Was very clear, very few lees at the bottom of the vessel. Usual 1/2tsp per 660ml bottle. I guess we'll see if it carbonates!

Interesting and good point - I'm currently wondering this. I racked off this week into secondary with a reading of 1005 from 1060 - the temperature is good but there's no activity evident and I'm left wondering how long I should leave it in secondary because I intend to carbonate some of my batch but don't want to have the very problem you describe...

 

[needmorstuf]

I have some going now, it started at 1.04 and if it ever gets to 1 that's when I will rack into secondary with priming sugar. Hopefully there will be enough yeast left to prime. I have observed with prosecco that if you leave it too long to clear then there wont be enough yeast to prime. In terms of clearing from top to bottom I left it half way if that makes sense and it primed fine. When I left it to clear over 2 thirds of the way down it didnt.

 

[Roddy]

I have some going now, it started at 1.04 and if it ever gets to 1 that's when I will rack into secondary with priming sugar. Hopefully there will be enough yeast left to prime. I have observed with prosecco that if you leave it too long to clear then there wont be enough yeast to prime. In terms of clearing from top to bottom I left it half way if that makes sense and it primed fine. When I left it to clear over 2 thirds of the way down it didnt.

when you say you'll 'rack into secondary with priming sugar', you'll bottle it immediately right ?

 

[needmorstuf]

when you say you'll 'rack into secondary with priming sugar', you'll bottle it immediately right ?

Yes.

I will rack of the yeast and sediment into another vessel purely for bulk priming, after bulk priming I will bottle immediately.

 

[MattH1973]

Great thread freester. Secondary was a complete mystery to me last year, I was very worried about oxidisation wasting all that pressing effort, and this thread will be a great resource for the future.

- last year, because of these worries I left in secondary for only a few days. Bottles carbonated fine and kept for months. They cleared after just a few weeks in the cellar and were delicious from that point. Because of the lack of time fermenting there was a lot of sediment - didn't affect taste but it was hugely frustrating to waste a thimbleful of cider per bottle....

- this year I gave my main batch 2 weeks in primary and it had gone down to 1.002 iirc. as the demijohns I am using for secondary are not completely brimmed I will give it no more than 2 weeks. I may well bottle this weekend, which would be one week. I will ponder that over a beverage tonight.

- for interest, for the first couple of days in secondary there was some slow airlock activity and I will take a hydrometer reading again at bottling to see if it got any further. after about day 3-4 the airlocks are all as flat as pancake.

- I also have 10 litres which was in primary for one week only and got down to 1.004. In secondary that followed exactly the same pattern as above so I will bottle that at the same time.

- I have one further 5 litre batch still in primary just coming up on two weeks. I might bottle that straight from primary at the same time just to save cleaning my siphon again. Airlock has stopped on that one too.

- no sign of any of these batches clearing yet...

hope this helps....

 

[scott78]

If you want to be sure of carbonation then you can add a fresh pack of yeast prior to bottling.

 

[MattH1973]

I bottled mine this weekend. The 10 litre batch to which I added pectolase on juicing day was just starting to clear after a week in primary and a week in secondary. I reckon if I'd waited another week it may have fully cleared and I'd have got flat cider.

To the post suggesting adding more yeast at bottling wouldnt that lead to a ton of sediment ? but agree it is a way of ensuring carbonation if the cider has cleared fully.

 

[MattH1973]

my 10 litre batch (pectolase added pre fermentation, 1 week in primary, 1 week in secondary) was already starting to show signs of clearing last night just 24 hours after bottling. I do hope there were enough yeasties left to carbonate..... will update this thread with the result....

 

[MattH1973]

more talking to myself on this......

the batch I bottled straight from 2 weeks in primary is already hardening the bottles - indicating that carbonation has already largely occurred.

the other two batches that had a week in secondary are clearer (although not completely clear) and the bottles are not nearly as hard. hopefully these will still carbonate, just slower due to less yeasties....

of those latter two batches, one had pectolase and one didn't. Pectolase therefore doesn't appear to be having huge influence on the issue at this point...

 

[deeboi]

more talking to myself on this......

the batch I bottled straight from 2 weeks in primary is already hardening the bottles - indicating that carbonation has already largely occurred.

the other two batches that had a week in secondary are clearer (although not completely clear) and the bottles are not nearly as hard. hopefully these will still carbonate, just slower due to less yeasties....

of those latter two batches, one had pectolase and one didn't. Pectolase therefore doesn't appear to be having huge influence on the issue at this point...

You're not talking to yourself, I'm listening :wink:

I currently have a 10l batch on just now, it's been in the primary for 3 weeks tomorrow due to me having a cold/flu/chest infection, coughing germs everywhere lol so I didn't want to chance touching the cider.

I'm about to put it in the secondary to dry hop for 7 days then rack, batch prime then bottle. I think it will still carbonate.

 

[freester]

I'm still listening (would be rude not too as I started the thread).

So I've bottled / primed 2 batches so far. One VERY clear had been settling for 4 weeks after racking from FV. The other bottled after 2 weeks clearing but I whipped up a few of the lees.

Both have thrown some lees in the bottles suggesting a bit more fermentation / carbonation so let's see.

I wonder if it's length of time not how clear... ?

 

[MattH1973]

thanks freester - will be very interesting if the batch that had cleared carbonates...... keep us informed....

all my batches have thrown some sediment, which leaves me hopeful this will be OK and that I'm falling into that old internet trap of looking for things to worry about...

I will squeeze my bottles again tonight, when I expect to be hunting out some wine in the cellar...

 

[freester]

I will squeeze my bottles again tonight,

:lol::whistle:

 

[MattH1973]

Glad you like the innuendo....

memory is hazy as I'd been on the Aspalls when I went down there but....

- the batches that had been fermenting for 2 weeks only, both with pectolase, had firmed up nicely. Within that, the batch that had a week in primary and a week in secondary is almost fully clear.

- the batch that had been in primary for 2 weeks and secondary for one, and also was diluted down rather more than the others, is firming up more slowly but I think it is getting there. still slightly cloudy suggesting something is going on....

- The "dregs" bottle from the leftovers of each demijohn after siphoning has literally an inch of sediment but is clearing and firming up. I'm going to wager that will be a very drinkable bottle - I'm glad I didn't throw anything away !

 

[MattH1973]

Update. the batch that seemed to be going more slowly is now clearing and firming up nicely. I assume the extra week had meant more yeasties had died off in secondary and it therefore chewed through the priming sugar more slowly. Consistent with that is my "dregs" bottle firmed up most quickly - with about 1cm of sediment in the bottom !!

All batches now almost completely clear.

 

[Tonibee]

My cider (two batches: (1) natural and (2) with added sugar to boost alcohol content) had one week in primary before racking to secondary. After one month, when it was completely clear, I bottled half, adding 1/2tsp sugar for 500ml bottle, and the rest I bottled after a further two weeks, again adding sugar.

The first bottled lot fizzed up nicely - both 1 and 2. But the extra two weeks has weakened the secondary ferment in batch 2; the bottles are firm and the cider is lightly carbonated - there's no or very little sediment so I supsect it's just the gas remaining from the first ferment. Batch 1 bottles fizzed up just fine and produced sediment.

 

[scott78]

It might just need more time, I got the yeast addition wrong on our first bottling run this year and it carbonated up in a week, the second time i added significantly less yeast and it took 5 weeks to carbonate but threw very little sediment. well worth the wait for an easy pour.

 

[freester]

So a bit more googling and thought and then I realised I'd missed the blindingly obvious with this one.

If you have left your cider for too long in secondary or you want to be 100% certain you could always microdose with some yeast before bottling. I've never done this and have no idea how much yeast but I'd guess maybe 1/4-1/2 tsp to a DJ. Generous tsp to a Carboy or maybe a pinch of the dry stuff to each bottle along with the sugar?

I'm going to give this a go at some point with this years batches.

Edit: Doh just realised this was mentioned in the thread above

If you want to be sure of carbonation then you can add a fresh pack of yeast prior to bottling.