Cider is 'winey' and not very 'appley'

[starspud1]

Just trying my cider that i bottled a few days ago and it's not as 'apple' tasting as the stuff you buy in shops?
Is this a simple fix? I'm wondering if i made a mistake letting it ferment right out to the end?

Although theres a (slight) apple taste, it's mainly quite winey, like a semi dry white. And i'm not keen on wine (though it won't be wasted).

I'm sure you guys will know the answer and i'm sure it'll be something simple
thanks
Bazza

 

[Somnophore]

What yeast did you use, are you carbonating? I just put a splash of apple juice in mine when I drink it.

 

[graysalchemy]

Hi Bazza

What was your recipe? Was it a TC from supermarket apple juice or was it from fresh apples? Did you add any tannin or Malic acid both these are in short supply in desert apples. Also what yeast did you use I find a cider yeast works well. I use one cultured from a bottle of Westons Old Rosie.

Finally how long have you left it? Cider gets better with age the longer you leave it preferably in bulk before bottling, traditionally cider was brewed in the autumn and over wintered in a barrel before bottling and drinking.

Most cider tastes rather insipid when you especially a tc with little or no tannin. I think at this stage time is the only possible not so quick fix.

 

[starspud1]

Hi, My recipe was: Lidl Apple Juice (50% from concentrate), Tesco Clear Honey, boiled (1 jar to a gallon), a little pectolase (though i added this halfway through fermentation)

The yeast was Youngs Super Wine Yeast compound. How long? it fermented out about 3 days ago, i bottled it and i'm drinking it now... bloody hell it's strong, i'm nearly drunk on a pint already lol.

 

[Crastney]

1 jar of honey to 1 gallon of juice ?!?!

flmping eck! that's gonna be strong!

 

[starspud1]

1 jar of honey to 1 gallon of juice ?!?!

flmping eck! that's gonna be strong!

Well you're not wrong there - i was p*****d on a pint :)

Im finding that adding a quarter of apple juice to 3/4 pint of the 'cider' helps make it taste a little less winey :) hiccup

 

[graysalchemy]

Well done you have managed to make tramp juice :clap: :clap:

You would have probably got a slightly more apple tasting tramp juice by going to the corner shop and buying 2l of dimond white..................and it would have probably cost you less as well.

 

[starspud1]

Well done you have managed to make tramp juice :clap: :clap:

You would have probably got a slightly more apple tasting tramp juice by going to the corner shop and buying 2l of dimond white..................and it would have probably cost you less as well.

Oh well thanks for encouraging me not to bother wasting my time... i'll finish off this 20 or so litre batch and then i think i'll go back to buying it... I thought i might be doing something right (i was actually enjoying it as well lol) , but this is obviously not for me

 

[pittsy]

Well done you have managed to make tramp juice :clap: :clap:

You would have probably got a slightly more apple tasting tramp juice by going to the corner shop and buying 2l of dimond white..................and it would have probably cost you less as well.

Oh well thanks for encouraging me not to bother wasting my time... i'll finish off this 20 or so litre batch and then i think i'll go back to buying it... I thought i might be doing something right (i was actually enjoying it as well lol) , but this is obviously not for me

what giving up ....never you just now know you added to much things in it now youve already learnt !!! by the time you get this down as you want it will be way cheaper and much nicer than shop bought plus the pride that you made it , dont give up that man
show em allllllll

 

[cabbie]

Well done you have managed to make tramp juice :clap: :clap:

You would have probably got a slightly more apple tasting tramp juice by going to the corner shop and buying 2l of dimond white..................and it would have probably cost you less as well.

ahh, but where's the fun in buying it

 

[graysalchemy]

There isn't but then there isn't much fun drinking insipid tramp juice.

 

[shearclass]

There isn't but then there isn't much fun drinking insipid tramp juice.

That's not for you to decide, people can drink whatever they want.

Starspud, when making turbo cider there is no need to add extra sugar, (or honey or other fermentables) as you will get about 5% just with the apple juice. This way, it will taste more like cider too. I made a batch a few months ago jsut with apple juice, a little tannin, and some wine yeast.

You can add extra stuff if you like to make it stronger, but this will water down the taste.

 

[Cussword]

There isn't but then there isn't much fun drinking insipid tramp juice.

That's not for you to decide, people can drink whatever they want.

Starspud, when making turbo cider there is no need to add extra sugar, (or honey or other fermentables) as you will get about 5% just with the apple juice. This way, it will taste more like cider too. I made a batch a few months ago jsut with apple juice, a little tannin, and some wine yeast.

You can add extra stuff if you like to make it stronger, but this will water down the taste.

I think that is the point Alistair is trying to make.
We can all make "Tramp Juice", but, with a little restraint, & patience, it can be worth the effort :thumb:
Also if you are patient, you can hit 6%, just using the apple juice, & tannin :thumb:

 

[shearclass]

Yeah I think mine was more than 5% but wasn't sure.

I didn't think I liked cider until I made some TC. It tasted awful so I didn't drink it. Six months later I had s bottle and I couldn't believe it. Either my taste buds had changed, or the cider had improved dramatically.

 

[starspud1]

There isn't but then there isn't much fun drinking insipid tramp juice.

That's not for you to decide, people can drink whatever they want.

Starspud, when making turbo cider there is no need to add extra sugar, (or honey or other fermentables) as you will get about 5% just with the apple juice. This way, it will taste more like cider too. I made a batch a few months ago jsut with apple juice, a little tannin, and some wine yeast.

You can add extra stuff if you like to make it stronger, but this will water down the taste.

I think that is the point Alistair is trying to make.
We can all make "Tramp Juice", but, with a little restraint, & patience, it can be worth the effort :thumb:
Also if you are patient, you can hit 6%, just using the apple juice, & tannin :thumb:

Thanks for your input.. i'm sorry to have seemed abrupt earlier, the main reason for my home brewing is a) to save money b) to make something proud enough to share with friends.. and it seems from the 'tramp juice' statement that i've just made *****.. however reading the above quote was probably what i should have heard in the first place.. I have been using 'young's super wine yeast' - does that class it as a turbo cider then? I'm really dumb on that one.
My current setup involved apple juice and 5 (yes five!) jars of clear honey in 22litres with 4 whole cinnamon sticks (i boiled them first in the honey) along with star anise, oh and a cup of strong black tea (i have been reading the forums, though i don't know why i've done it). It's been fermenting away since wednesday and after a quick peek and sniff it's smells quite nice.
The SG was 1.053.. Can I clarify what you are saying here? Do i need to 'kill' the yeast at some point before the fermentation has finished? If so, at what stage and how? Seems kinda cruel to me lol

 

[graysalchemy]

I was a little to harsh on you Bazza and apologise. Tramp juice and the brewing of quick and nasty stong brews just to get you p*ssed is a pet hate of mine and I think this forum has a lot more to offer people than that.

Unless you use real cider apples you are going to struggle to make a really good cider just as buying some red grape juice you are never going to make Chateaux Latour. However unlike red wine the chemistry of cider is a little simpler and understanding what is lacking in desert apples ( which makes up carton apple juice) and understand the importance of maturation, we can re address the balance and and turn potential tramp juice into something half decent.

First of all adding sugar as pointed out above is a flavour dilutent, if ferments completely leaving little but alcohol thus diluting the taste. A cider from supermarket apple juice left to ferment completely out will produce a cider of 5-6% which IMHO isn't badm

As I have already mentioned apple juice is fundimentally different to cider apple juice as it has little tannin or malic acid. The acid contributes a sharp taste and tannin the bite. These however can both be added a a rate of 1tsp per gallon and should be available from a local home brew shop or online.

Malic acid is also important as when it is aged it undergoes malolactic fermentation where by a bacteria converts the malic to lactic acid which is far more rounded in flavour. This leads me on to the next point which is aging. Cider traditionally is aged through the winter. This like with wine allows subtle changes to take place and develope the flavour. This is why people complain tthat turbo cider is insipid, this is also true of commercial tramp juice. Even a few months in the bottle will make difference.

Finally the yeast used will have an effect. Some people will use a wine yeast, I use a cider yeast cultured from a bottle of westons old rossie. This with the above gives my cider that scrumpy twang.

The last thing to concider is do you want cloudy or clear cider, if you want clear add 1tsp of pectolase per gallon.

Now when it has fermented it will need to be fermented to dryness If you are wanting to bottle condition. If you want it bottle conditioned but sweeter then you can sweeten with spenda, but don't add sugar (bar what you are using to prime the bottles with) as you will get bottle bombs. Some people do as you have done bottle dry and add apple juice on serving. To prime add about 6-8g of sugar per litre (not bottle) this will give a nice fizz. The best way to bottle is to batch prime, search the forum there is plenty on this.

If still cider is your thing then you can kill of the yeast when you have reached to correct sweetness with a wine stabiliser, I think this is pottasium sorbate but I may be wrong as I never use it. It can then be bottled with out the fear of it fermenting again in the bottle.

I hope that is of help and that perhaps you may give it another go.

AG

 

[starspud1]

Thanks Graysalchemy, i can understand your passion and how my post would have possibly riled you - but it wasn't intended, i'm a beginner.

I've read about good results using Lidl apple juice hence why i chose to have a go. I understand your point about quality expectations - i can assure you i don't expect to make something as good as would be bought, but what i do want is to save some money, whilst having fun creating something and sharing it.. For information, i'm a keen cook, and love to have friends sample my efforts - it gives me joy. This i hope to expand into the drinking area.

I read with interest your mention of this 'westons old rosie'.. yet i can't seem to locate it? Is it readily available? I'd be interested to know how you culture this yeast - am i correct in presuming that it gives your own recipe a 'family trait' of the old westons yeast?

I've used pectolase - it's in my current batch from the start - my last batch i added it halfway through and it worked well.

Sugar - hmm i think i'm underestimated this, hence my excessive use of honey along with the apple juice - it's currently bubbling like a trooper..

The original gravity of my current batch (22litres) was 1.053.. and it's now at 1.022.. which i used an online calculator to get a result of 4%abv.. does that seem right with everyone else's calculations? If so, it would mean in the next day of so i need to be exterminating the little critters.
I had a drink of the 'sample' - don't know if thats normal but i were curious and couldn't resist.. quite sweet - nice christmassy cinnamon/star anise taste. My madagascan vanilla pods arrived today as well so one of those will be put in at the final stage to infuse the vanilla taste.

Thanks graysalchemy for your time during the last post- it was very a informative read.

Thoughts anyone?

 

[graysalchemy]

I got my westons old Rossie from asda but just checked on mysupermarket and only waitrose and ocado have it. Westons cloudy scrumpy in 2l flagon is also available at the above and at asda.

Culturing up a starter is quite simple. Basically let the bottle of cider settle, pour out the cider and drink leaving the dregs in the bottom. Pour these into a sterilized milk bottle and top up with 250ml of apple juice and put a piece of cotton wool in the top or cover with tin foil (no airlock at this stage). Give it a good shake and leave it somewhere at about 20c. Every now and then give it a stir. When fermentation has stopped, let it settle an decent of most of the 'cider'. Now put this in a sterilized demijohn with 1l of apple juice and repeat the process. When it has finished top it up with more apple juice. You could at this point now add 1 tsp of tannin and 1tsp of malic acid and 1tsp of pectolase. Once this has got going then top it up to the gallon and ferment. When it has stopped you will have a gallon of TC and a decent amount of yeast. Rack of the cider and then use this yeast straight away on a bigger batch and it now should ferment away.

If at the beginning it doesn't ferment then the yeast is duff. When I did this with the bottle of Westons i wasn't expecting it to ferment as I thought that the cloudy cider had been pasteurised at some point and then force carbonated at somepoint on a bottle line however it did ferment.

If your cider is at 1022 it has got a long time to go yet. It should ferment down to below 1.000 but that will depend on how fermentable the honey is I can't remember if honey is 100% fermentable. It is important to let it go all the way to dryness if you are wanting bottle conditioned cider. When it has dropped you should have a cider of 7.2%.

I have flavoured up ciders before. It is best flavouring them after fermentation to avoid the possible risk of infection and also because the basic flavour of the cider is there you can remove your spices when you have reached the flavour you want. Remember it is probably better to just have a hint of spice that a full on hit of cinammon etc.

I have done the above using Cinnamon bark cardomen seeds and a clove or two (in a gallon) it does taste quite good, but i did find it was better employed in cooking. With this in mind I now make a pork dish cooked in cider with cinnamon,cardoman , clove garlic and sage. It all works really well together. Even better would be a piece of slow roasted belly of pork cooked over onions with the herbs and spices and adding the cider at some point. Now I am getting hungry.

Hope that helps

 

[tonyhibbett]

Seems you have made a decent apple wine. Let it mature for a few weeks and drink it chilled with a chicken or fish meal and then reconsider.
A good cider does not taste of apples, any more than wine tastes of grapes. If yoyu are looking for an alcoholic beverage which tastes of apples, buy some cheap vodka and mix it with apple juice.