Cider, first fermentation

[Anton]

Hi everyone, new here, and new to brewing too. I'd be grateful for a word of wisdom, if I may ask? It's about the immediate post fermentation period - duration and containers.

Using Sainsburys cloudy apple juice, the first couple of tries resulted in very good vinegar, but not what I'd been aiming for. Then I found out about oxygen and acetobacter, which should give an idea of the depth of my ignorance.

The last batch turned out surprisingly good, however (excluded oxygen this time). Clarified beautifully with VinClear (pectinase seemed to do nothing) resulting in a crystal clear golden yellow liquid that tasted nothing like commercial cider at all, but we loved it. So now working on the next batch, same apple juice, same 90g sugar added per litre, same EC-1118, same 2 litre plastic bottles with airlocks. Just more of them this time.

I've heard that the usual first ferment period is six weeks, and I stuck to that with the last batch.

The airlocks stopped bubbling after about a week and a half, and the lees has settled. Still cloudy but I'm expecting VinClear to flocculate that out, as before. I've heard that (a) the lees can give the brew a bad taste, and (b) secondary fermentation should preferably be in glass, not plastic, presumably because glass is impermeable and plastic might not, be it ever so slight.

Since active fermentation seems to have finished, what purpose does sitting out the six week period in the same container, lees and all, serve?

Would any harm be done, or any advantage be gained. by decanting the liquid off into glass containers to leave the lees behind and get the soon-to-be cider into glass?

Most grateful for any advice, please.

 

[jceg316]

Welcome to the forum!

Do you take gravity readings? Airlock activity can be a good rule of thumb, but only reading the specific gravity will give a proper indication if it's finished. What you're making is turbo cider (TC), and it tends to have a less complex flavour than cider made from apples. One way round this is to add a cup of strong tea (use 2 tea bags to steep for some time) per 4-5 litres. This adds tannins and a bigger depth of flavour.

The lees can give cider a bad taste due to autolysis, but I don't believe this to be such a big issue. When the benefits and costs are weighed up I think keeping cider on lees for 6 weeks is fine. I'd be surprised if any bad flavours come out in this time. In my own cider making experience I've never experienced any off flavours from autolysis and I've left cider on lees for 6+ weeks.

I've read not to leave beer (or cider) in plastic for longer than 2 weeks, however I don't know where 2 weeks came from. Transferring to glass for longer storage would be a good idea, especially if you'll bulk age for months. It would be worth getting a glass demijohn if this is a regular ferment you'll be doing. Just be sure to sterilise everything coming into contact with the cider. To get rid of excess head space in the demijohn, fill with apple juice or a 10% sugar solution.

Is there an advantage to this? I guess peace of mind - it's safer to leave knowing it's off the lees and air can't get in. I've found life gets in the way of my brewing schedule so often my TCs get ignored or I forget about them for a month longer than I should. In glass I'm not worried about air seeping in. I think reusing plastic bottles can be dodgy, I've heard things about plastic seeping into the contents, but never fact checked this myself.

Let me know how you get on or if there are any other questions.

 

[Anton]

Thanks for your very useful reply.

Current batch SG is a whisker under 1 so seems like all the sugar is now alcohol.

I've learnt a new term - turbo cider! Does "turbo" suggest that it goes faster? Or just that the first part has been skipped? With typical noob enthusiasm, I went at my very first brew with windfall apples, mushed in a garden shredder, squeezed in muslin in a home made press, no yeast or sugar added (only wild yeast), and just left it. That was some 6-7 years ago, and the result became vinegar (cos why not) but then returned to being drinkable again or, at any rate, no longer acid. It was quite rough, and very potent. The organism, whatever it is, seems very resilient - add a bit of sugar and there it goes again. The brews from that are all surprisingly potent. I'm still doing it, blindly - no idea what it is.

Your tip about tea bags is interesting. I used tea as suggested in a YouTube mead brew, to add what the presenter called "mouth". The result actually has a kind of medicinal flavour, not to my liking but hoping it will fade as it rests off lees (brew started 20sep in 2 litre plastic bottles, bottled 30oct at SG<1 into 1 litre glass fliptops). Wondering if the medicinal taint is to be expected and will fade, or have I done something?

Is there any point in adding tea now to my current cider brew, or is it too late? I actually don't mind if it turns out like the last batch. Despite that its SG was slightly <1, it had a sweetish flavour. I did add a pinch more yeast to one bottle, but nothing happened, so still wondering what caused the sweetness.

 

[jceg316]

Does "turbo" suggest that it goes faster? Or just that the first part has been skipped?

Turbo refers to not having to scrat and press apples, but just using juice. So yes, the first part being skipped.

With typical noob enthusiasm, I went at my very first brew with windfall apples, mushed in a garden shredder, squeezed in muslin in a home made press, no yeast or sugar added (only wild yeast), and just left it. That was some 6-7 years ago, and the result became vinegar (cos why not) but then returned to being drinkable again or, at any rate, no longer acid. It was quite rough, and very potent.

lol yes I've been there too! I've heard a few times that apples can be pressed and left to ferment, and whilst this is true the reality is it's a real crap shoot as to what you'll end up with! There isn't any more saccharomyces compared to other yeast and bacteria. Yes you're letting the natural saccharomyces cerevisiae ferment, but you're also letting whatever else is in the juice eat the sugars and do their thing too. Every time I've done this I've ended up with bad cider.

One step is to use campden tablets to kill everything in the juice. Technically speaking I think it "prohibits" other than kills, and some bugs it harms more than others; in short it gives saccharomyces a headstart over other bugs that can ruin the cider.

After some months cider goes through a malo-lactic fermentation where malic acid gets turned into lactic acid (this may not be 100% accurate, but the malic acid "disappears" or something). Malic acid can be quite harsh so over time softens out, and would explain why yours became more drinkable.

Your tip about tea bags is interesting. I used tea as suggested in a YouTube mead brew, to add what the presenter called "mouth". The result actually has a kind of medicinal flavour, not to my liking but hoping it will fade as it rests off lees (brew started 20sep in 2 litre plastic bottles, bottled 30oct at SG<1 into 1 litre glass fliptops). Wondering if the medicinal taint is to be expected and will fade, or have I done something?

Have you tried adding tea to cider? I've not (successfully) made mead before so I can't comment on the addition of tea, but I've never got medicinal flavours from it. I'm wondering if that might be an infection? TBH I'm not sure if it will fade, although I do find bad flavours do disappear over time.

Is there any point in adding tea now to my current cider brew, or is it too late? I actually don't mind if it turns out like the last batch. Despite that its SG was slightly <1, it had a sweetish flavour. I did add a pinch more yeast to one bottle, but nothing happened, so still wondering what caused the sweetness.

If it's already made I don't think there is too much point adding it. I've made TC without adding tea and it's still a nice cider. And you make what's nice for you!

I don't think all sugar would be fermented out, and sometimes fruit flavours can appear sweet. There may be other sugars in there which aren't fermentable as well. For dryer TCs I find adding sugar can dry it out, but of course the strength will increase.

If cider is something you want to know more about, this website is incredibly useful. The guy has also written a book with more information in which is worth reading.

 

[Anton]

Thanks for another really useful reply - you've given me a lot to think about.

I've never added tea to cider - in fact, I was fairly dubious about adding it to the mead as per the YT video, but did it anyway. Before that, I didn't know that adding tea was an option.

The mead setup was the first time I'd used "real" sanitiser as opposed to just soap and water (on the basis that detergents kill bugs by damaging cell membranes). I'm in the UK, so used the local equivalent of what I'd seen in the video which was of US origin.


he 6 carboys that came today, filled with the appropriate sanitiser dilution (10ml/gallon) in water. It's a bit cloudy, and our water is medium hard, but it's what we've got.


Thanks for the link to the website - going to explore it.

My last (nice) cider was not fizzy - is yours effervescent? If so, how did you achieve that? Asking because the airlock lets all the CO2 out, and adding some sugar and more EC-1118 didn't do a thing - and anyway I'm not keen on cleaning up after a potential explosion. I'm considering a soda siphon, as and when.

 

[jceg316]

No worries at all, happy to help!

I've not used Chemsan before, it came out when Starsan was banned in the UK. It seems to be back in the shops now, but I believe Chemsan is just as good. It does tend to go cloudy in hard water but is still just as usable. Some people don't like it because the solution can go a bit slimy. I don't particularly care, I reuse cloudy starsan. I'm in London so I have hard water.

I do prefer cider with a bit of carbonation. In my opinion if a cider is flat it really needs a body on the heavy side for a decent mouthfeel, otherwise it ends up being a bit thin and insipid.

If bottling carbonated drinks always use a vessel that can handle pressure. I reuse glass beer bottles but I know others reuse soda bottles. Don't use a wine bottle or cordial bottle as these will explode.

I use this to calculate how much sugar to add for priming. I know it says beer, but it works equally well for cider. When you've measured out the sugar, dissolve it in boiling water and pour it into the bottling bucket or demijohn if you're bottling straight from the DJ. Using a stanitised stirring implement, give the cider a gentle stir being careful not to oxygenate or disturb the sediment. syphon into bottles and seal the bottle. Wait 2 weeks and the cider should be ready to drink.

Alternatively I've also had success with half a tsp of sugar per 330ml bottle, or 1 tsp per 500ml, then siphon the cider on top and seal. You won't need to add more yeast as there will be enough in suspension.

 

[Anton]

Thank you. I'll certainly try your method of carbonation.

My last batch had a slightly liqueur-like character, which I really liked. I'm on my last glassful tonight, and then just hope the new batch turns out as good.

Have you used pectolase? I did with that last batch, and then did it again when there was no visible settling out, but no dice. What did work well was isinglass (as VinClear), which resulted in a crystal clear golden liquid.

 

[jceg316]

Thank you. I'll certainly try your method of carbonation.

My last batch had a slightly liqueur-like character, which I really liked. I'm on my last glassful tonight, and then just hope the new batch turns out as good.

Have you used pectolase? I did with that last batch, and then did it again when there was no visible settling out, but no dice. What did work well was isinglass (as VinClear), which resulted in a crystal clear golden liquid.

I tend not to bother with clearing agents when it comes to cider. I'm really into West Country and traditional cider, a lot of which is cloudy. Also I like to keep things simple and am not keen on adding things to the juice if I don't actually need to. Half my friends are vegan so I keep clear of islinglass so I can share my ferments with them.

I'm based in London and have a friend from the West Country who takes his cider very seriously. When I first made TC I offered him some, and with anger and shock he replied "What?!?! You wouldn't offer someone from Champaign turbo champagne would you?"

To which I responded "depends how much of a c*nt they are."

Anyway, he tried it and seemed to quite like it. Had some helpful feedback as well like adding oak chips would add a really nice character to it. I've added oak to TC before but can't remember how it came out. I have some oak going spare and nothing to do with it, might get some TC on the go...

 

[LED_ZEP]

A cheap and easy addition to get TC closer to the commercial ciders is to add some citric acid. By commercial I mean things like Strongbow and the like not traditional ciders. Also i agree with @jceg316 that tea bags do add to the depth of flavour and toasted oak chips are also a nice addition.

 

[Anton]

Thanks for that, jceg316 and LED_ZEP. I'm definitely going to try teabags and toasted oak in my next batch.

Do the oak chips need to be added from the start? Presumably they will add more of their flavour if they've been in for longer, but would their be any worthwhile benefit to adding them halfway through first ferment, say at 3 weeks? And - any recommendations regarding which type and where to buy? Amazon has a couple, American and French, and both look pretty similar from the photos, and identical prices.

How much oak would you add per gallon/5litres of brew?

 

[jceg316]

Not all oak is the same. Oak chips take about 1-2 weeks to depart their flavour and are best added 1-2 weeks before bottling. I let fermentation and any other conditioning complete, then I add oak chips for 1-2 weeks. I take a small sample each week to see if the flavour intensity is strong enough then I bottle. I've used oak in quite a few beers and ciders and find for me I like the flavour after 2 weeks. I'd recommend using oak chips to start, there are other types of oak like cubes, spirals but chips are probably the easiest to handle and obtain.

The difference between French and American oak is the former is a bit more subtle than the latter. In terms of how much to use, I've guesstimated 15g in 25 litres, or 3g per 5 litres. If it's not enough it may take longer to get the desired oak flavours and vice versa. These measurements tend to work for me.

They do need to be sterilised before going into the cider. My usual is to soak the chips in whiskey for 5 days and it gives a whiskey barrel profile (the cheapest nastiest whiskey will do!). I've also used cheap gin for no profile. Pour the whole thing in. I've also boiled the woodchips in water for 10 minutes and poured everything, water and chips, into the cider/beer.

I tend to buy woodchips from geterbrewed as I do most my homebrew shopping there and just chuck them in the basket with my other things. I've got from ebay before. Most homebrew shops seems to have woodchips. I find homebrew things on amazing are pretty expensive compared to the homebrew shops, but if just buying woodchips, delivery from HBSs would probably be more than the chips themselves!

 

[Anton]

Wonderful, thank you!

So i do have time to add the chips - I have 2-2½ weeks left on first ferment. Get'erBrewed is out of stock, and Amazon's postage is crazy, so they're coming from eBay, promised by Thursday. Soaking in whiskey sounds good - I imagine any 40-50% ABV liquor would do? Brandy might be good, and probably vodka if you don't want any added flavouring? Gin, I'm told, is just vodka flavoured with juniper berries?

A host of possibilities!

 

[jceg316]

No worries! Good luck with it all and very interested to hear how it comes out. Barrel aging, as you may be aware, is an artform in itself and there's loads that can be done. I'd love to experiment more with oak.

If you have success with wood chips, oak cubes are the next stage. I used them in an imperial stout after oven roasting them and it gave a really nice character. They're a bit more pricey but you get a bit more control.

 

[LED_ZEP]

If you're going to use oak with regularity buy an old whisky/wine barrel and that will give you a good supply.
You can also get a little creative with some of the staves, I made a few of these as gifts from the one I got: