Cereal mashing

[barkar]

Hi i have a recipe that calls for flaked maize , I have course ground maize which isn't gelatinized so i think i need to do a cereal mash . The steps seem straightforward , however it adds a little longer to my brew time . Is there any reason why i couldnt :
1. cereal mash this evening and store
2. Add to main mash tmorrow and brew

ie do i need to brew immediatley after the cereal mash

What has peoples experiences been with this. Its for a london pride recipe which calls for flaked maize , again the amount is quite small (500g) compared to the main grain bill

 

[State of the mind]

Yeah, I had to add 450g of maize when brewing a "Hanging Possum Pilsener". I just boiled the maize for thirty minutes, this is what Papazian suggests you do in "The Complete Joy of Homebrewing", and then added it in with the grain bill.

There should be no reason why you couldn't store the maize for a few days, just so long as you cover it over and put it in the fridge or something, so that you are preventing it spoiling. :whistle:

 

[barkar]

sounds good :thumb:

did you find it converted or that you reach your expected gravity or add anything in the flavour :

 

[State of the mind]

sounds good :thumb:

did you find it converted or that you reach your expected gravity or add anything in the flavour :

The 30 minute boil breaks the maize down into starch that can be further broken down when added to the mash by the alpha and beta amylase enzymes. And the maize doesn't really add flavour in my opinion. It just thins out the beers body. Also the maize contributes to a terrible chill haze. In most cases Finnings are a must if you want clear beer.

 

[Aleman]

sounds good :thumb:

did you find it converted or that you reach your expected gravity or add anything in the flavour :

The 30 minute boil breaks the maize down into starch that can be further broken down when added to the mash by the alpha and beta amylase enzymes. And the maize doesn't really add flavour in my opinion. It just thins out the beers body. Also the maize contributes to a terrible chill haze. In most cases Finnings are a must if you want clear beer.

Actually that is completely wrong The reason Maize and rice are used (particularly in American Standard Beers) is that it dilutes the nitrogen component from the 6 row malt reducing the chill haze . . . if you are getting a haze using rice or maize then you are doing something wrong.

As for taste, it depends on how much maize you are using . . . I have used up to 30% for a Classic American Pilsner . . . but found I didn't like the 'corn' taste and now use about 20% . . . the less you use the less you taste it. however it will reduce the malt profile of the beer.

The correct Cereal Mash technique is as follows.

Take the ground maize, and add some malt (1/4 of the maize weight - from the main grist) . then make a mash at around 50C (using you usual liquor to grist ratio ~ 2.5L/Kg) . . . it will get really sticky . . . leave for 15 minutes . . . when you look again it will have thinned out amazingly . . raise it to 65C and give it another 15 minutes. . . . Finally raise to boiling stirring all the time and boil for 30 minutes adding boiling water to thin the consistency so that it is less likely to stick. During this stage the starch molecules burst apart forming long chains of amylopectin which make it accessible to mash enzymes. The gelatinisation temperature of different grains varies, barley is quite low, but maize and rice is above 75C hence the reason for boiling.

While you can do what you suggest . . . I do suspect you will come back down to a thick gloopy gelatinous mash that will require thinning with boiling water before you can use it. . . . When you are ready to add it back tot eh main mash you only need about 60 minutes to convert it . . . What I normally do is to start the cereal mash then during the two rests I mash in the main batch . . . bring it to the boil for 30 minutes then add back tot eh main mash for another 60 minutes. . . . it adds about an hour to the brew day.

 

[State of the mind]

Actually that is completely wrong

Apologies I thought I knew what I was talking about. But I guess not.

Actually that is completely wrong The reason Maize and rice are used (particularly in American Standard Beers) is that it dilutes the nitrogen component from the 6 row malt reducing the chill haze . . . if you are getting a haze using rice or maize then you are doing something wrong.

Apologies again, this is just what I have found using the brewing techniques I have posted. And I have found that the only recipe I have even had chill haze in has contained maize, therefore why I made the connection. And I did not know this was the reason for the use of maize. :thumb:

The correct Cereal Mash technique is as follows.

Take the ground maize, and add some malt (1/4 of the maize weight - from the main grist) . then make a mash at around 50C (using you usual liquor to grist ratio ~ 2.5L/Kg) . . . it will get really sticky . . . leave for 15 minutes . . . when you look again it will have thinned out amazingly . . raise it to 65C and give it another 15 minutes. . . . Finally raise to boiling stirring all the time and boil for 30 minutes adding boiling water to thin the consistency so that it is less likely to stick. During this stage the starch molecules burst apart forming long chains of amylopectin which make it accessible to mash enzymes. The gelatinisation temperature of different grains varies, barley is quite low, but maize and rice is above 75C hence the reason for boiling.

here I think you are trying to over complicate something that is quite simple. Basically your method here is that you are just adding a small amount of malt to the maize and doing a mini mash and then boiling for 30 minutes. Please correct me if I am wrong.

What I suggested was that you boil the maize (in water) for 30 minutes and then add the (now) gelatinized maize to the grist and start your mash. This seems to be very similar to your "correct technique" and not "completely wrong" as you have stated, it is just a different method. whether or not it is better or more efficient is neither here nor there, it is still a valid method.

 

[barkar]

Thanks lads for your input , suppose will have to take the best of both and run with it , will keep you posted on how i get on , again it will only make up 10% of the total grain bill so not a lot really ,

 

[Aleman]

here I think you are trying to over complicate something that is quite simple. Basically your method here is that you are just adding a small amount of malt to the maize and doing a mini mash and then boiling for 30 minutes. Please correct me if I am wrong.

It's not really an over complication . . but essentailly you are correct . . . sort of . . . its not a proper mini mash tough as you are not really interested in converting teh starch.

What I suggested was that you boil the maize (in water) for 30 minutes and then add the (now) gelatinized maize to the grist and start your mash. This seems to be very similar to your "correct technique" and not "completely wrong" as you have stated, it is just a different method. whether or not it is better or more efficient is neither here nor there, it is still a valid method.

The reason for adding the pale malt and a short 'stand' at mash temps (I normally don't bother with the 50C Rest and go straight for 65C), is to allow the enzymes to liquefy the mash. If you make a mash using a 'normal' liquor to grist ratio the mash is incredibly thick and attempting to boil this will just result in excessive carbonation on the bottom of the pan even with continual stirring. Adding the malt and resting 15 minutes turns that thick porridge into a thing gruel which can be boiled much more easily. . . . especially if the losses to evaporation are replaced.

About the only time I have had difficulty in sparging was when I made my last CAP using 20% corn meal . . . I didn't get the cereal mash to completely gelatinise due to the fact that it was so thick and burnt on the base of the pan. . . When I added it to the main mash it set like concrete when I attempted to drain the tun, and there was no way of shifting it. While you may get away with just a boil it is not best practice, and it is not commercial practice either.

 

[State of the mind]

The reason for adding the pale malt and a short 'stand' at mash temps (I normally don't bother with the 50C Rest and go straight for 65C), is to allow the enzymes to liquefy the mash. If you make a mash using a 'normal' liquor to grist ratio the mash is incredibly thick and attempting to boil this will just result in excessive carbonation on the bottom of the pan even with continual stirring. Adding the malt and resting 15 minutes turns that thick porridge into a thing gruel which can be boiled much more easily. . . . especially if the losses to evaporation are replaced.

Don't get me wrong, I was not criticizing your method. The next time I brew a recipe which calls for maize I will employ your method as the last time I used maize it caused chill haze. Your method might just sort this out. :thumb: If not finnings might be a must for me. :evil: