Cask conditioning and priming

[Lanky94]

Morning Brew Team!

I plan on using stainless Corny kegs for storing my Bitters and using an Angram to serve it. I have looked all over the net about conditioning the beer.

Should I prime it as I would a bottle (at a reduced sugar rate), or not prime at all and rely on the pump?

I really don't like my beer with much fizz, just a very slight carbonation. I would imagine the pump will give me this correct.

Please help clear this up for a lad new to brewing:)

 

[peebee]

Have a look through this thread for starters:

http://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=55578

...you'll see your dreams are (astonishingly) bleeding edge stuff!

 

[peebee]

But to answer some of your questions...

I prime with about 15-20g of sugar per corny. Don't rely on just the hand-pump; it will draw beer out of the Corny even when there is no pressure left in the Corny and so create a vacuum. Cornies don't like vacuums! Air is pulled past the seal and in a few days the beer goes off! Hence "breathers", "intermediary" vessels, propane regulators, etc, etc.

 

[Dads_Ale]

The problem with using a corny is that you cannot really use them for secondary fermentation as they draw the beer from the very bottom of the keg, so it will pick up the residue as well. Essentially they are good at force carbonation, which you could still do at a low psi. The problem here though is that the corny lid relies on pressure to seal, so a low pressure may not seal it (depends on how good your corny is). You would also need to maintain a low gas pressure (difficult on some regulators) to stop the pump pulling a vacuum and losing the lid seal.

If you over carbonate then you will end up with a load of foam, and funnily enough probably flat beer.

 

[peebee]

The problem with using a corny is that you cannot really use them for secondary fermentation as they draw the beer from the very bottom of the keg, so it will pick up the residue as well. ...

Yeah. Never had this problem because I had read you must cut 20-30mm off the end of the dip tube. I naively thought everyone must do this (they don't). Actually I bung the end of the tube with a piece of O-ring (lid seal) and drill through the tube about 20-30mm up (its hard, stainless steel, so you need to make a little jig and use a cobalt drill).

 

[Lanky94]

Would it not be the first pint or 2 that draws sediment? I plan to minimize this, by leaving in primary for a month and then cold crash before transferring.

 

[peebee]

Would it not be the first pint or 2 that draws sediment?

I'll leave Dads_Ale to answer that. I, of course, don't know because I'm not drawing from the very bottom (nor ever have).

I plan to minimize this, by leaving in primary for a month and then cold crash before transferring.

You are possibly mixing up objectives here. British "bitters" (below 1.050) are served young, and with very minimal carbonation because pressure trashes the "fresh" beer (especially hop) flavours. I aim to be drinking hand-pumped bitter within 10 days of starting to make it. Gradually it "matures" into a different drink. This policy doesn't hang well with one month storage and "cold crashing"!

 

[Dads_Ale]

Would it not be the first pint or 2 that draws sediment? I plan to minimize this, by leaving in primary for a month and then cold crash before transferring.

This is largely dependant on the amount of sediment and how mobile it is.
I find with my corny set up (force carb and keg tap and full length dip tube) that with SO4 you pretty well get a clear pint from first pour (about 2 weeks in keg). This is because the beer is nearly crystal clear in the FV and the sediment packs down very tight. However with USO5 this tends to be a bit more hazy and is fairly loose so takes a bit longer to settle in the keg and the first couple of pints are a bit cloudy.

If you are priming your corny the shortening the dip tube or using peebee's fix may work to reduce sediment pick up.

 

[Lanky94]

I'll leave Dads_Ale to answer that. I, of course, don't know because I'm not drawing from the very bottom (nor ever have).



You are possibly mixing up objectives here. British "bitters" (below 1.050) are served young, and with very minimal carbonation because pressure trashes the "fresh" beer (especially hop) flavours. I aim to be drinking hand-pumped bitter within 10 days of starting to make it. Gradually it "matures" into a different drink. This policy doesn't hang well with one month storage and "cold crashing"!

Yes, maybe Iam getting muddled. I maybe have become blinkered as this is my first beer I have ever brewed. It is a woodefordes wherry kit and I have read that it needs to be stored for up to 8 moths to get the best from it. I assumed that was the same for all British bitters?

Can I ask how you handle your bitters ie time in primary, conditioning etc?

 

[peebee]

Yes, maybe Iam getting muddled. I maybe have become blinkered as this is my first beer I have ever brewed. It is a woodefordes wherry kit and I have read that it needs to be stored for up to 8 moths to get the best from it. I assumed that was the same for all British bitters?

Can I ask how you handle your bitters ie time in primary, conditioning etc?

I'm probably assuming too much too. I'm an "all grainer" and I don't know if kits react well to the "fresh beer" approach. I've been brewing 40 years (!!!) yet only been making progress with "cask conditioning" and hand pumps in the last year. And the important revelations about bitter being young (which is obvious in hindsight) came through the American BJCP style guides although Americans don't understand the British liking for "flat" hand-pumped beer and the guide goes on to recommend some pretty "fizzy" bitters!

CAMRA (who I had followed in the past) offer little helpful advise to home-brewers. Well, that's not what they are there for! Follow CAMRA ideals and your beer will go off! CO2 is probably essential (the old way - 40 or 50 years old - of dealing with "cask conditioning", and hand-pumps, uses collapsible "polypins" which have plenty of issues too).

So, my current techniques are very much "work in progress", but here goes (you are rewarded with a very long-winded post as I try to "consolidate" my ideas at the same time):

Standard "bitter" recipe of pale malt and crystal malt (I use a lot of crystal - perhaps 10%). Keep hopping relatively low (28 IBU - any more and the bitter will need longer maturing). Dry hopping and "Aroma" hops (last 5-10 minutes of boil) don't seem necessary but "flavour" hops (last 20 minutes of boil) seem good. Use British hops (the "herby" nature seems to fit better with "fresh" flavours).

About 4%-4.5% ABV. Standard British ale yeast (e.g. Safale S-04).

Ferments out in 2-3 days at 20 degrees (1.008-1.012), secondary FV for 3-4 days. "Secondary" for me just means fitting an airlock!

Cask (cornies) with 15g sugar per cask. I also fine (isinglass). Fining does slow down conditioning and the beer is marginally "sweet" for the first few days (good?). Don't use this technique for bottling!

Rest 2-3 days and tap! I used to be careful to maintain about 4PSI CO2 for the first few weeks and then allow to creep to 6-7PSI. But I'm now playing with new regulators that can hold 0.75-2PSI (no conclusions yet).

NOTE: The Cornies may need tinkering with to stay sealed at low pressure. Plus modified Corny dip-tubes to avoid sucking up the dregs. A "check valve" (demand valve) needed on the hand-pump because even 0.75PSI will push beer through the pump!

 

[Dads_Ale]

Yes, maybe Iam getting muddled. I maybe have become blinkered as this is my first beer I have ever brewed. It is a woodefordes wherry kit and I have read that it needs to be stored for up to 8 moths to get the best from it. I assumed that was the same for all British bitters?

Can I ask how you handle your bitters ie time in primary, conditioning etc?

If this is your first brew then I would probably avoid trying to serve via the hand-pump.
As said, hand-pumps are not the easiest dispense method for home brewers and I think you would be better to concentrate on the brewing side than risk later problems with dispense.
Once you know you can brew a decent beer then by all means turn you attention back to the hand-pump dispense.

Do you have a full corny set up, i.e. gas and tap etc? If so I would go with that in the first instance and simply force carb.

 

[Lanky94]

If this is your first brew then I would probably avoid trying to serve via the hand-pump.
As said, hand-pumps are not the easiest dispense method for home brewers and I think you would be better to concentrate on the brewing side than risk later problems with dispense.
Once you know you can brew a decent beer then by all means turn you attention back to the hand-pump dispense.

Do you have a full corny set up, i.e. gas and tap etc? If so I would go with that in the first instance and simply force carb.

Good morning.
Yes I do have a full corny set up with a double reg and bottle. I plan on using that for force carbing an AG American Blonde Ale. I think this type of beer lends itself to such storage/serving methods ( its for the Wife as she doesn't like my style of drink).

I have done one kit so far ( woodefordes) that I plan on splitting between bottles and a polypin. My next one planned is the same kit with some tweaks, again half bottled ( so I can compare when matured) and a pin.

I have done much research on the pins and have read they can be used successfully so I'll give that a try first before trying the method that Peebee uses in the post above.

I only get back home to the UK once a year and I am in desperate need of a traditional pint hence the need for a pump! I do tend to get into my things rather quickly and go in at the deep end!

 

[Lanky94]

I'm probably assuming too much too. I'm an "all grainer" and I don't know if kits react well to the "fresh beer" approach. I've been brewing 40 years (!!!) yet only been making progress with "cask conditioning" and hand pumps in the last year. And the important revelations about bitter being young (which is obvious in hindsight) came through the American BJCP style guides although Americans don't understand the British liking for "flat" hand-pumped beer and the guide goes on to recommend some pretty "fizzy" bitters!

CAMRA (who I had followed in the past) offer little helpful advise to home-brewers. Well, that's not what they are there for! Follow CAMRA ideals and your beer will go off! CO2 is probably essential (the old way - 40 or 50 years old - of dealing with "cask conditioning", and hand-pumps, uses collapsible "polypins" which have plenty of issues too).

So, my current techniques are very much "work in progress", but here goes (you are rewarded with a very long-winded post as I try to "consolidate" my ideas at the same time):

Standard "bitter" recipe of pale malt and crystal malt (I use a lot of crystal - perhaps 10%). Keep hopping relatively low (28 IBU - any more and the bitter will need longer maturing). Dry hopping and "Aroma" hops (last 5-10 minutes of boil) don't seem necessary but "flavour" hops (last 20 minutes of boil) seem good. Use British hops (the "herby" nature seems to fit better with "fresh" flavours).

About 4%-4.5% ABV. Standard British ale yeast (e.g. Safale S-04).

Ferments out in 2-3 days at 20 degrees (1.008-1.012), secondary FV for 3-4 days. "Secondary" for me just means fitting an airlock!

Cask (cornies) with 15g sugar per cask. I also fine (isinglass). Fining does slow down conditioning and the beer is marginally "sweet" for the first few days (good?). Don't use this technique for bottling!

Rest 2-3 days and tap! I used to be careful to maintain about 4PSI CO2 for the first few weeks and then allow to creep to 6-7PSI. But I'm now playing with new regulators that can hold 0.75-2PSI (no conclusions yet).

NOTE: The Cornies may need tinkering with to stay sealed at low pressure. Plus modified Corny dip-tubes to avoid sucking up the dregs. A "check valve" (demand valve) needed on the hand-pump because even 0.75PSI will push beer through the pump!

Wow! Many thanks for taking the time to reply in such detail!

I have done lots of research on the net and I did have the same idea for serving as you, very similar infact. I have also considered poly pins ( which I will probably do first due to the cost of buying more kegs)!

How does your method turn out using the regulator Peebee? How long does your beer stay fresh using your method?

I would imagine the small amount of sugar you use works well?

Nathan

 

[peebee]

Wow! Many thanks for taking the time to reply in such detail!

No problem. Like I said at the beginning, it's bleeding edge stuff and the opportunity to have a "sanity check" makes it well worth it!

How does your method turn out using the regulator Peebee? How long does your beer stay fresh using your method?

I would imagine the small amount of sugar you use works well?

Nathan

Still early days, the "propane" regulators only arrived this week. But worth the picture! Hand-pump still attached to "Workmate" (really is work in progress). Note dumpy "southern pour" nozzle. Good head, but its going to take a while for pressure to stabilise (it was conditioned at 5-7PSI and as a result suffers from having an "un-cask-like" tingle). And the beer (a strong bitter, not the one described above) contains 6% torrified wheat with dramatic results!

As you're going with polypins I better elaborate on my comments about them: Only a very little conditioning and the things blow up like beach balls! I can't recommend them nor do I want one in my house! Though I haven't heard of one bursting. The beer stays fresh (as I expect from my cornies) and will still contain dissolved CO2 as it deflates with drinking. (CAMRA ideology insists that air is let in, and the CO2 will then disperse and the beer go off). But at zero PSI it will quickly (a few days) only contain about 0.9 "volumes" of dissolved CO2 and taste very flat. That's why I said external CO2 is needed (about 2 PSI, what my new regulators will hold to, will keep 1.1 "volumes" CO2 dissolved). CAMRA ideology assumes the beer will be drunk before then!