Can I rescue an ale by blending it with another?

[John Barleycorn]

I have created and brewed a brown ale with which I am not happy.
It was a one gallon all grain brew in a bag. Brewed about ten days ago, OG 1048 FG 1012
- I haven't bottled it yet, it is still in a demijohn.
It is very underhopped and far too dark in colour.
All of this happened through me messing up the quantities of the ingredients.
If I brew another ale, very pale in colour and overhopped, then blend this with my first ale will this give me a more balanced ale with a lighter colour?
I know that Newcastle Brown Ale is supposed to be produced by blending an amber ale and a brown ale in a similar way so it occuured to me that I might be successful doing this.
If the experts here think it is worth a try I will give it a go, but maybe I should cut my losses and pour the ale down the drain?
After all the total cost of the ingredients was less than one pint of pub ale. Maybe a fresh start would be a better idea? What do you think?
I can provide more details about the brew if you think it is relevant.

 

[Dutto]

I have mixed the odd two bottles of different brews to get something "different" and it has usually produced either a wonderful drink that just cannot be repeated OR a drink that is heading for the drain after the first taste!

IF your brown ale is "palatable but disappointing" then, personally, I would go ahead and try it out with the lighter ale that you suggest. "What have you got to lose?" Nowt!

I actually have a few 330ml bottles left of a Barley Wine that I brewed with much too much Chocolate Malt back in March 2016. Rather than throw it away (and as I don't use 330ml bottles any more) I occasionally pour one out, taste it to see if it has improved any (it hasn't so far) and then make a 25% Barley Wine to 75% Lemonade shandy with it.

As a shandy, it makes quite a nice drink on a cold day! :thumb:

 

[Fil]

is the bitterness lacking or just aroma? either way both can be adjusted in the FV the former with an addition of boiled hop liquor 'tea', and the latter with a dry hop addition in the demijon for upto a week prior to bottling

colour?? if this needs? adjusting, i think the above shandy suggestion is probably the best idea, tho you could also paint a couple of pint glasses - no im not taking this aspect seriously.. as i dont think anyone has ever returned a pint based on colour alone just learn the lesson, as im sure you have that a lil black(and other dark malts) goes a LONG way

imho its always worth botteling and maturing brews that dont seem quite as they should in the FV and after the 1st early taste these often mature into brews of note given the chance..

 

[John Barleycorn]

I'll get down my local home brew shop and ask if they have any rose tinted pint glasses - as recommended on the tintynet - a great accessory for beginner and expert alike to tweak up those less than perfect brews!!

Shandy, now there's a thought.

I think I'll give the errant brown another week then bottle. As you both say I can always clobber it with lemonade and be a bit more careful with my planning and ingredients next time.

Thanks for your input guys.

 

[Honk]

Good choice,you can always brew a pale ale next and combine them at the drinking stage.
I did an old peculiar clone that was much too bitter but was nice when mixed with a southern brown ale. Took me ages to finish it mind but by the time I did it had mellowed and was nice on its own.

 

[Zephyr259]

If it's only 10 days old and still in the demijohn then you're not going to get the best idea of what it will be like fully conditioned and carbonated. Never tried blending but a hop tea might be good for adjusting hop flavour and aging some bitterness but also never done one of them.

How messed up were your quantities?

 

[John Barleycorn]

I set up a calculation for the recipe where the default alpha's were 1% higher than the actual hops I had. I'm new at all this and am just beginning to get a grip on some of the finer points.
This is my second all grain, I was very pleased with my first. I expect I will have much to learn as I continue with my brewing experiences.
I ended up with a calculated actual IBU of 12.2, where I was actually hoping for something in the range of 20-30, the IBU/GU value came out at .25 and is 'cloying'
I boiled 5g of Golding hops for an hour where 10g would have put me closer to an acceptable value.
It was supposed to be a Northern brown and has come out more like a wonky Scottish export.
As you say it is early to judge, I'll wait, bottle and wait some more and see how it turns out.

-------
this is a run down on my brew - I follow it with a 'corrected version' that has a much better balanced profile - what I think it should have been - I'll be giving the corrected version a try shortly

1st try - Northern English Brown Ale (11C)
================================================================================
Batch Size 4.815 L
Boil Size 5.815 L
Boil Time 1.000 hr
Efficiency 75%
OG 1.049 sg [actual OG 1.048]
FG 1.010 sg [actual FG 1.012 after 10 days]
ABV 5.2% [I suppose anything will do really as long as it is alcoholic]
Bitterness 12.2 IBU (Tinseth)
Color 32.7 ebc (Morey)

Fermentables
================================================================================
Name Type Amount Mashed Late Yield Color
Fawcetts - Maris Otter Pale Malt Grain 1.012 kg Yes No 81% 5.0 ebc
Fawcetts - Crystal Malt 1 Grain 50.000 g Yes No 74% 120.0 ebc
Fawcetts - Chocolate Malt Grain 20.000 g Yes No 73% 880.0 ebc
Fawcetts - Black Malt Grain 10.000 g Yes No 55% 1,100.0 ebc
Total grain: 1.092 kg

Hops
================================================================================
Name Alpha Amount Use Time Form IBU
Golding - Leyland 4.0% 5.000 g Boil 55.000 min Leaf 9.1
Fuggles - Leyland 3.5% 3.000 g Boil 15.000 min Leaf 2.4
Fuggles - Leyland 3.5% 2.000 g Boil 5.000 min Leaf 0.7

Miscs
================================================================================
Name Type Use Amount Time
Whirlfloc Fining Boil ¼ tab 15.000 min

Yeasts
================================================================================
Name Type Form Amount Stage
Danstar - Nottingham Ale Dry 11.00 mL Primary

Mash
================================================================================
Name Type Amount Temp Target Time
Conversion Infusion 3.000 L 78.426 C 66.667 C 1 hr
Final Batch Sparge Infusion 4.000 L 81.709 C 74.000 C 15 min


====================================
====================================
...and here is what I think I should have been doing:

My 'corrected' Brown Ale - Northern English Brown Ale (11C)
================================================================================
Batch Size 5.000 L
Boil Size 6.000 L
Boil Time 1.000 hr
Efficiency 75%
OG 1.045 sg
FG 1.009 sg
ABV 4.8%
Bitterness 22.3 IBU (Tinseth)
Color 28.0 ebc (Morey)

Fermentables
================================================================================
Name Type Amount Mashed Late Yield Color
Fawcetts - Maris Otter Pale Malt Grain 950.000 g Yes No 81% 5.0 ebc
Fawcetts - Crystal Malt 1 Grain 40.000 g Yes No 74% 120.0 ebc
Fawcetts - Chocolate Malt Grain 25.000 g Yes No 73% 880.0 ebc
Total grain: 1.015 kg

Hops
================================================================================
Name Alpha Amount Use Time Form IBU
Golding - Leyland 4.0% 10.000 g Boil 55.000 min Leaf 18.8
Fuggles - Leyland 3.5% 3.000 g Boil 15.000 min Leaf 2.5
Fuggles - Leyland 3.5% 3.000 g Boil 5.000 min Leaf 1.0

Miscs
================================================================================
Name Type Use Amount Time
Whirlfloc Fining Boil ¼ tab 15.000 min

Yeasts
================================================================================
Name Type Form Amount Stage
Danstar - Nottingham Ale Dry 11.00 mL Primary

Mash
================================================================================
Name Type Amount Temp Target Time
Conversion Infusion 3.045 L 74.710 C 66.667 C 1 hr
Final Batch Sparge Infusion 4.056 L 80.815 C 74.000 C 15 min

 

[Zephyr259]

Thanks for the details, interesting that you fine a 1.012 fg beer cloying even with the low bittering. I'd agree on dropping the black malt next time, the chocolate should be fine for the colour and flavour. Good luck, hope the current batch is better once it's carbonated.

 

[GerritT]

Hm, I read the recipe, you hit the marks good! But how many brews have you done already? Because it's a fairly complex grainbill for such a small batch (in my opinion, for what it's worth).

 

[John Barleycorn]

Good luck, hope the current batch is better once it's carbonated.

Thanks for showing interest Zephyr. I just bottled the first go a few hours ago. I'll leave it two or three weeks before I give it a try. I sampled a little as I bottled and it seems slightly malty but generally pretty flavourless, it definitely needs bittering, according to my palate. I've got a bitter on the go right now, but I will probably give the second 'corrected brown' a shot on my next mash.

But how many brews have you done already? Because it's a fairly complex grainbill

Hi GerritT. I'm an all grain virgin. In fact this foray into brewing is a matter of days old. Thirty years ago, as humans were beginning to emerge from their caves, I was brewing wines and beers from kits. The home brew shop I used to visit in those days , quite remarkably, still exists. Those days are long gone as is the equipment I used and I no longer live in that area. I have to date, recently, bottled some ginger ale, I have some banana wine beginning to mature, also a demijohn of fruit wine slowly conditioning. In addition I made up, shared and consumed 9 pints of beer following Clibits excellent beginner AG tutorial. Since then I had a go at this disappointing brown ale, which was my second brew. I jumped back into the saddle and I'm repeating my first novice brew in the hope it will be as good as the original. That will be my third brew. I don't want to produce any quantity of ale at this stage. I'm in learning mode so small batches let me explore more territory and hone my skills. I intend to have another go at the brown using the revised recipe. As far as ingredients are concerned I'm finding my way around in the dark.
I've seen how crystal malt can affect colour and the head on the beer. I've also seen what powerful effects on colour the black and chocolate malts can have. I'm looking at the way hops are used and which ones do what and when. I'll be getting some torrified wheat to see what that does and I've got my eye on Admiral hops to use for bittering. I've dabbled with brewing software but I think it will be some time before I have command of that. I'll be experimenting with colour and flavour looking at a session ale rather than extreme strength. As you can see with only three all grain ales under my belt I have much to learn. I'm looking forward to the experience. Thanks for looking at my efforts.
:cheers7:

 

[Zephyr259]

Do worries, and playing about with small scale batches is a great way to learn, I did 4 stove toppers then got my grainfather. I've also been caught out with black malt, 50g in an 18L batch and my bitter looked more like a brown ale but didn't have the flavour to match so although it was a nice beer, there was something odd about it due to the mismatch of appearance to taste.

 

[John Barleycorn]

there was something odd about it due to the mismatch of appearance to taste.

I've seen a number versions of formulations, one example is a Landlord recipe, that use a tiny amount [1-2%] of black malt, possibly to slightly darken the colour?

I'm not sufficiently knowledgeable to be able to guess how a recipe will work out. I was hoping that brewing software would give me some idea but I suppose, as with everything, you can't beat hands on experience.

*addition* I've just come across something concerning black malt. I was wrong it might have nothing to do with colour or flavour either but it was only used at about 2-5 g per kilo of malt.

quote from The QBrew Brewing Primer:
The black malt may seem strange in a pale ale, but it is there for a reason. Black and roasted malts are very acidic, and your mash needs to be slightly acidic (5.2 to 5.4 pH) in order for it to work efficiently. This bit of black malt will help your mash pH, but the amount is so small that it won't affect the flavor or color of the finished beer.

So I've just learnt a little more.

 

[Zephyr259]

Interesting, playing with the numbers in bru'n water a roast malt will tweak your pH slightly, but at those levels it's probably not accurate with the margins of error involved. Even 1% black malt should produce a noticeable colour change if the predicted EBC values are accurate, albeit one that makes a beer change from straw to golden.

Colour is one of the tricky ones, I got caught out with the GF online software as it's little colour indicator is always a lot lighter than the beer, I think it shows the colour that the sample would look like in the testing kit rather than the beer in a glass. My porter was 40 ebc and it's picture is definitely brown but once you hit 40 ebc the beer is black in the glass. I'm starting to get an idea of what colour to expect from 10 ebc ranges but it does vary with malts used. My re-brewed bitter might be more coppery this time due to the 20% munich malt even though it's actually a couple of EBCs lower in colour. That's just a guess from the wort colour though.

 

[Gerryjo]

I set up a calculation for the recipe where the default alpha's were 1% higher than the actual hops I had. I'm new at all this and am just beginning to get a grip on some of the finer points.
This is my second all grain, I was very pleased with my first. I expect I will have much to learn as I continue with my brewing experiences.
I ended up with a calculated actual IBU of 12.2, where I was actually hoping for something in the range of 20-30, the IBU/GU value came out at .25 and is 'cloying'
I boiled 5g of Golding hops for an hour where 10g would have put me closer to an acceptable value.
It was supposed to be a Northern brown and has come out more like a wonky Scottish export.
As you say it is early to judge, I'll wait, bottle and wait some more and see how it turns out.

-------
this is a run down on my brew - I follow it with a 'corrected version' that has a much better balanced profile - what I think it should have been - I'll be giving the corrected version a try shortly

1st try - Northern English Brown Ale (11C)
================================================================================
Batch Size 4.815 L
Boil Size 5.815 L
Boil Time 1.000 hr
Efficiency 75%
OG 1.049 sg [actual OG 1.048]
FG 1.010 sg [actual FG 1.012 after 10 days]
ABV 5.2% [I suppose anything will do really as long as it is alcoholic]
Bitterness 12.2 IBU (Tinseth)
Color 32.7 ebc (Morey)

Fermentables
================================================================================
Name Type Amount Mashed Late Yield Color
Fawcetts - Maris Otter Pale Malt Grain 1.012 kg Yes No 81% 5.0 ebc
Fawcetts - Crystal Malt 1 Grain 50.000 g Yes No 74% 120.0 ebc
Fawcetts - Chocolate Malt Grain 20.000 g Yes No 73% 880.0 ebc
Fawcetts - Black Malt Grain 10.000 g Yes No 55% 1,100.0 ebc
Total grain: 1.092 kg

Hops
================================================================================
Name Alpha Amount Use Time Form IBU
Golding - Leyland 4.0% 5.000 g Boil 55.000 min Leaf 9.1
Fuggles - Leyland 3.5% 3.000 g Boil 15.000 min Leaf 2.4
Fuggles - Leyland 3.5% 2.000 g Boil 5.000 min Leaf 0.7

Miscs
================================================================================
Name Type Use Amount Time
Whirlfloc Fining Boil ¼ tab 15.000 min

Yeasts
================================================================================
Name Type Form Amount Stage
Danstar - Nottingham Ale Dry 11.00 mL Primary

Mash
================================================================================
Name Type Amount Temp Target Time
Conversion Infusion 3.000 L 78.426 C 66.667 C 1 hr
Final Batch Sparge Infusion 4.000 L 81.709 C 74.000 C 15 min


====================================
====================================
...and here is what I think I should have been doing:

My 'corrected' Brown Ale - Northern English Brown Ale (11C)
================================================================================
Batch Size 5.000 L
Boil Size 6.000 L
Boil Time 1.000 hr
Efficiency 75%
OG 1.045 sg
FG 1.009 sg
ABV 4.8%
Bitterness 22.3 IBU (Tinseth)
Color 28.0 ebc (Morey)

Fermentables
================================================================================
Name Type Amount Mashed Late Yield Color
Fawcetts - Maris Otter Pale Malt Grain 950.000 g Yes No 81% 5.0 ebc
Fawcetts - Crystal Malt 1 Grain 40.000 g Yes No 74% 120.0 ebc
Fawcetts - Chocolate Malt Grain 25.000 g Yes No 73% 880.0 ebc
Total grain: 1.015 kg

Hops
================================================================================
Name Alpha Amount Use Time Form IBU
Golding - Leyland 4.0% 10.000 g Boil 55.000 min Leaf 18.8
Fuggles - Leyland 3.5% 3.000 g Boil 15.000 min Leaf 2.5
Fuggles - Leyland 3.5% 3.000 g Boil 5.000 min Leaf 1.0

Miscs
================================================================================
Name Type Use Amount Time
Whirlfloc Fining Boil ¼ tab 15.000 min

Yeasts
================================================================================
Name Type Form Amount Stage
Danstar - Nottingham Ale Dry 11.00 mL Primary

Mash
================================================================================
Name Type Amount Temp Target Time
Conversion Infusion 3.045 L 74.710 C 66.667 C 1 hr
Final Batch Sparge Infusion 4.056 L 80.815 C 74.000 C 15 min

Hi John,just looking at your corrected brown ale recipe and see that you have dropped the black malt and have increased your chocolate malt by 5g of which is still around 2% of your grain bill and decreased your crystal by 10g.I'm assuming you mashed all your grains together which would maybe attribute to your added bitterness given by the chocolate malt.
Your crystal malt will probably be lost to the chocolate but maybe what you could try next time is maybe using Carafa I as this will impart a qualities similar to the chocolate malt but without the roast and bitterness and would also increase your crystal to around 5% to help with the slight hint of caramel notes.
Out of curiosity did you chill with the hops still in the wort or did you remove them as this will also increased IBU's slightly.

 

[Dutto]

I agree entirely with Gerry above!

Also, since my first use of Chocolate Malt (a Barley Wine that has sat on the shelf "maturing" since April 2016) I decided to severely reduce its use in any experimental recipes.

Enjoy! :thumb: