Can I connect a beer engine to a King Keg?

[kelper]

Can I connect a beer engine to a King Keg?
What is the normal pressure in a pub keg?
Does the demand valve accommodate a wide range of keg pressures?

Thanks!

 

[HoppyTommy]

I researched this last year at great length before giving up. There were some very good website guides I found and a youTube clip of someone explaining their setup.

Pub casks are under zero pressure but for my corny keg I was planning to keep 2-3 psi on top with co2 to stop it going off.

I gave up on the idea in the end as my normal keg taps are virtually zero maintenance.

 

[Legolas]

Hi Kelper,

I did this some years ago. Bought a widget word S30 adaptor (flexible hose to valve connector), connected one end to the keg and the other to my pub gas cylinder and set the regulator to a low PSI - it was a long time back so I’m afraid I can’t recall exactly what PSI. I had a check valve between the keg and the beer engine and it worked well. Prior to this modification, I did try just giving the keg an occasional blast from a hambleton bard co2 cylinder but it was very hit and miss, being able to ‘dial in’ the pressure on a regulator made all the difference.

 

[kelper]

Hi Kelper,

I did this some years ago. Bought a widget word S30 adaptor (flexible hose to valve connector), connected one end to the keg and the other to my pub gas cylinder and set the regulator to a low PSI - it was a long time back so I’m afraid I can’t recall exactly what PSI. I had a check valve between the keg and the beer engine and it worked well. Prior to this modification, I did try just giving the keg an occasional blast from a hambleton bard co2 cylinder but it was very hit and miss, being able to ‘dial in’ the pressure on a regulator made all the difference.

Did the beer taste better? I've now learned that it can be quite wasteful. I guess we would all like the pub experience of a hand pulled pint. But Mike has persuaded me that it's not practical. But thanks for the info

 

[Legolas]

For day to day drinking in small amounts it can be a faff, but as I was new to all grain brewing, the novelty of having a hand pulled pint was the main thing. If you are having friends over it’s definitely worth it just for the spectacle.

 

[An Ankoù]

Reply to Kelper.
Yes, you can. King Kegs present a difficulty because the tap is at the top and they use a float to serve the beer from the top of the liquid level. (Unless they've changed). There must be NO presssure in the keg as this will just blow the beer through the handpump.
I would also change the tap which, if I remember right is a lumpy white plastic thing.
So. Get rid of the float and ensure one of of the tube is connected to the tap and the other is about 7/8 of the way to the bottom of the keg. Use a nice fresh brew, which is still alive, better still, prime the keg with some sugar for a few days and leave the lid very slightly loose, I used to take the lid off, put a couple of sheets of kitchen paper over the hole and then put the lid back on, but not too tight.
When you're ready to go, take loosen the lid to let any pressure out and leave it loosely on top. Connect your handpump to the tap and turn the tap on. You're ready to go.
Needless to say the keg should be lower than the tap otherwise it'll just syphon. If you can find a keg with the tap at the bottom- the old Boot's ones are great. You'll save youself a lot of trouble.
You'll be drawing air into the keg so you need to shift the lot in a couple of days. It'll basically stay fizzy until the priming sugar runs out.

 

[Legolas]

Reply to Kelper.
Yes, you can. King Kegs present a difficulty because the tap is at the top and they use a float to serve the beer from the top of the liquid level. (Unless they've changed). There must be NO presssure in the keg as this will just blow the beer through the handpump.

 

[Legolas]

Sorry, I’ve cocked up the quote thingy - I’m new, bear with me..... AA the check valve negates the need to have to make any modifications to the beer delivery from the keg. They re designed to be used with a beer engine on systems where the beer is assisted via gas or electric pumps due to distance between the beer engine and the cask/keg. They work up to 45 psi and effectively don’t allow beer to passs the valve until it senses the vacuum being created by the beer engine, they work a treat.

 

[An Ankoù]

Sorry, I’ve cocked up the quote thingy - I’m new, bear with me..... AA the check valve negates the need to have to make any modifications to the beer delivery from the keg. They re designed to be used with a beer engine on systems where the beer is assisted via gas or electric pumps due to distance between the beer engine and the cask/keg. They work up to 45 psi and effectively don’t allow beer to passs the valve until it senses the vacuum being created by the beer engine, they work a treat.

Thanks, Legolas, I had never heard of this nifty bit of kit. It sounds great. It means you can empty the keg at your leisure, too.

 

[Legolas]

https://rlbs.ltd.uk/check-valve-high-performance-cask-ale-demand-valve.html

 

[peebee]

Ooo, an excuse to bandy a treaty I wrote about the place again: <- EDIT: Oops, I'm making peace with the Indians again. I mean "treatise".

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BwzEv5tRM-5EQUhZbDNPdmV1bWc

It's really based on using "Corny kegs" though would work for plastic pressure barrels (King Kegs). But I'm slightly concerned about some of the above remarks. Sure you can attach highly pressured kegs to a hand-pump via a demand-valve. Some so-called "Pubs" do it. But they are trying to fool some naïve customers, trying to fool yourself doesn't make a lot of sense?

Using LPG regulators (see article) with a King Keg and hand-pump would be a good approach, because a hand-pump will happily collapse a plastic pressure barrel with no CO2 being injected (it's a problem with Corny kegs too; the hand-pump will suck the lid in).

I find with those RLBS demand valves (they are the ones I use too) that if the beer even gets to 5-6PSI the hand-pump judders most alarmingly.


And to counter some of the criticism of hand-pumps: Beer can be improved by dragging through a pump, it is not just for show (at the same time, some beers do NOT improve on hand-pump). They are not a faff if managed right (and perhaps modified a little). Some of my beers are always on hand-pump, even if they are not getting much throughput.

 

[peebee]

I've just noticed my treatise pre-dates some useful improvements I made.

I fitted solenoid valves to the hand-pump's nozzle to keep air and bugs out of the beer sitting in the hand-pump cylinder. I replaced any silicone hose in the hand-pump (Angrams use it) with less oxygen transparent hose (I use PVC). It took me a while to figure out why beer left in the pump oxidised even after fitting the solenoid valve.

 

[An Ankoù]

Getting a little bit confused by this conversation.
A hand pump is supposed to draw the beer up and dispense it into the glass. The beer should be clear but towards the very end of a fermentation (extended by adding priming sugar if necessary). The cask doesn't have a "lid" and drawing up the beer doesn't create a vacuum because the beer is replaced by air (or Carbon dioxide if you use a cask breather).
I'm getting a sense that some of the equipment described above makes the hand pump nothing more than a tap for a remote keg where the beer is under pressure.
Now who's going to put me right on this, please?

 

[kelper]

A demand valve is fitted between keg and hand pump. This prevents any flow until the down stream pressure is reduced by the action of the hand pump. It's used in the pub industry where the lines to the hand pump are pressurised. This stops beer flowing through the suction and discharge valves in the hand pump.

I am now looking for a bar mounted keg tap - just for show. This is my understanding as a novice (but experienced engineer).

 

[Legolas]

AA, if you have the pressure set really low, the co2 isn't forcing the beer out, merely feeding the beer engine, you do get the proper hand pulled pint experience.

 

[Legolas]

Kelper, if you wanted to go down the very easy hand pull system, a cheap and cheerful poly pin connected to a beer engine is very straightforward, requires no gas, and as the pin collapses, the beer keeps rather than oxidising.

 

[peebee]

Getting a little bit confused by this conversation.
A hand pump is supposed to draw the beer up and dispense it into the glass. The beer should be clear but towards the very end of a fermentation (extended by adding priming sugar if necessary). The cask doesn't have a "lid" and drawing up the beer doesn't create a vacuum because the beer is replaced by air (or Carbon dioxide if you use a cask breather).
I'm getting a sense that some of the equipment described above makes the hand pump nothing more than a tap for a remote keg where the beer is under pressure.
Now who's going to put me right on this, please?

Sorry, but you'll have to refer to the above linked "treatise" for those answers. I know the treatise is a bit big, but that means I also know you couldn't have read and assimilated what it is getting at in an hour.

Yes I do suggest tiny amounts of top pressure which wouldn't be needed in a pub. But what I describe emulates hand-pumped beer so the cask can be attached to the hand-pump for a few weeks, not just a few days after which the beer goes off.

Kelper, if you wanted to go down the very easy hand pull system, a cheap and cheerful poly pin connected to a beer engine is very straightforward, requires no gas, and as the pin collapses, the beer keeps rather than oxidising.

Yes beer out of a polypin can be very good, but only extends the beer's life to about a month. The beer loses CO2 condition (even CAMRA defined "Real Ale" has CO2 condition) and the beer oxidises - ordinary polypins do not make for an oxygen barrier.