brexit still on?

[druid]

So I went back to the original thread but it has been locked. I stated then that democracy is dead, and the powers that be will not allow you to leave. With the recent info about turning it around....does anyone think you have been shafted? Just curious cause regardless of populism etc...if democracy is dead...shouldnt that be the topic of choice?



just me after some "wets" and watching the news feed.


Dave

 

[Ken L]

The one sided media coverage continues unabated and no deal would have been better than the sellout presented by Davies last week.
I also confess to being disappointed that the 1922 committee has failed to initiate a vote of no confidence in Theresa May based on her abandonment of fishing communities and the idiotic agreement to allow entry and right of abode to the millions of illegal migrants who will almost certainly have been granted EU citizenship before 2020.

 

[Bigcol49]

Hi!
Administrators: this isn't going to end prettily. Any chance of closing this thread - after all, this is a home brew site.

 

[Ken L]

Hi!
Administrators: this isn't going to end prettily. Any chance of closing this thread - after all, this is a home brew site.

I refer you to the wise words of Evelyn Beatrice Hall who famously penned the line "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

I'm always wary of those who would shut down debate or deny a platform...

 

[Gunge]

Hi!
Administrators: this isn't going to end prettily. Any chance of closing this thread - after all, this is a home brew site.

Aw c'mon Col, this is the Snug where every subject under the sun lives! I can't wait to see how this one pans out! Meanwhile, root canal surgery beckons. I've got a very good Polish dentist btw...

 

[GerritT]

At least with a Brexit you'll be freed from Juncker. That guy is a creep as I ever 've seen one.

 

[Clint]

It'll go off on a tangent,there will be off topic replies, there will be some who are always right,some who really don't care and will just bring their big spoon,some will listen to all of it and some will only listen to themselves. ...
I'm out!
Mainly for the reason the Brexit is already planned,whatever the outcome is ,all this nonsense is appeasement to the part of the population who still think we have a choice;to possibly avoid mass rioting and chaos. ...it's all planned I tell you! Think any different and you're deluded...

 

[Gunge]

Mainly for the reason the Brexit is already planned all this nonsense is appeasement to the part of the population who still think we have a choice;to possibly avoid mass rioting and chaos. ...it's all planned I tell you! Think any different and you're deluded...

You are absolutely correct. The remainers lost, but actually won. Dunno how that worked, but that's how it is.

 

[Bigcol49]

Aw c'mon Col, this is the Snug where every subject under the sun lives! I can't wait to see how this one pans out! Meanwhile, root canal surgery beckons. I've got a very good Polish dentist btw...

Hi!
I can't trust myself not to explode in a flurry of expletives

 

[Ajhutch]

Hi!
I can't trust myself not to explode in a flurry of expletives

I think we’d all like to see that, from one of the most mild mannered people on here!

 

[Bigcol49]

You are absolutely correct. The remainers lost, but actually won. Dunno how that worked, but that's how it is.

Hi!
I think that it is inevitable that the UK will leave the EU, it has to happen. When it does there will be a lot of disappointed citizens in the UK who will not get what they thought they were voting for.
Remember. if voting actually changed anything, they wouldn't let us do it!

 

[Bigcol49]

I think we’d all like to see that, from one of the most mild mannered people on here!

Hi @Ajhutch
Thank you for that - but the administrators have already closed one thread following an outbreak of vituperative language from me!
“There are three things all wise men fear: the sea in storm, a night with no moon, and the anger of a gentle man.”
Patrick Rothfuss, The Wise Man's Fear

 

[Ajhutch]

The Brexit debate in any substance is now between, for want of a better word, ‘hard’ Brexit and ‘soft’ Brexit. The idea that Brexit is likely, or even possible to stop is just fantasy at this point. Of course there are a few people still advocating for it but nobody in any position of power or influence.

I’m not quite sure how to relate this to the OP suggesting that democracy is dead, it strikes me that the majority voted for something and now the politicians are figuring out how to do it. Some may not think they are doing a very good job of it, but that’s pretty common to any policy carried out by a government in a democracy.

 

[IainM]

The Brexit debate in any substance is now between, for want of a better word, ‘hard’ Brexit and ‘soft’ Brexit. The idea that Brexit is likely, or even possible to stop is just fantasy at this point. Of course there are a few people still advocating for it but nobody in any position of power or influence.

I’m not quite sure how to relate this to the OP suggesting that democracy is dead, it strikes me that the majority voted for something and now the politicians are figuring out how to do it. Some may not think they are doing a very good job of it, but that’s pretty common to any policy carried out by a government in a democracy.

I'm not entirely sure about that. The vote was split damn near 50:50. A hard brexit would be so far away from what the 48% voted for, and too severe a severing of ties even for many of the 52%. The compromise that would better reflect the voters would be a soft brexit, staying in the customs union and single market, Norway basically. However, then we would still have to cough up and obey EU rules, but lose the ability to make, shape and, if necessary, veto those rules. I think pretty much everyone on both sides of the debate agrees that this would be a worse situation that the one we are in at the moment. The logical conclusion is then to just call the whole thing off and have a homebrew.

 

[Ajhutch]

I'm not entirely sure about that. The vote was split damn near 50:50. A hard brexit would be so far away from what the 48% voted for, and too severe a severing of ties even for many of the 52%. The compromise that would better reflect the voters would be a soft brexit, staying in the customs union and single market, Norway basically. However, then we would still have to cough up and obey EU rules, but lose the ability to make, shape and, if necessary, veto those rules. I think pretty much everyone on both sides of the debate agrees that this would be a worse situation that the one we are in at the moment. The logical conclusion is then to just call the whole thing off and have a homebrew.

It’s only 11am but I’ll drink to that!

I don’t disagree with anything you said, I suppose by ‘the debate’ I really meant the debate in Parliament, as they are the people actually implementing Brexit. Nobody on either front bench (my rough definition of ‘power or influence’) is currently (JC seems to change his mind a lot and his front bench like to freeestyle as a result) seriously advocating for staying in the single market and customs union, and I can see why for all the reasons you outlined.

Ultimately it isn’t an issue that lends itself to compromise, partly due to the EU’s approach, which is either fully in or fully out. Given that and the referendum result, fully out has to be the end position.

 

[Saisonator]

The one sided media coverage continues unabated and no deal would have been better than the sellout presented by Davies last week.
I also confess to being disappointed that the 1922 committee has failed to initiate a vote of no confidence in Theresa May based on her abandonment of fishing communities and the idiotic agreement to allow entry and right of abode to the millions of illegal migrants who will almost certainly have been granted EU citizenship before 2020.

That is one of the things that concerns me most, differing birth rates altering our own demographic is one problem, having free passage for Merkel's blunder will just conflate the situation.

 

[Thumper]

Leave voters have definitely been shafted. They lied to you the whole way through, you're not going to get anything close to what you were promised, and now we're all buggered.

Now we have two options: call a revote, which I actually don't think would be unreasonable, given the number of people I've met who voted leave and now wish they hadn't. Or allow the vote to stand (of course, we could call a revote and get the same result).

If we're out, I think we have to be out. The Norway model seems to have a lot of cons and very few pros, to me.

 

[Ajhutch]

That is one of the things that concerns me most, differing birth rates altering our own demographic is one problem, having free passage for Merkel's blunder will just conflate the situation.

How long does it take to get German citizenship? It’s seven years in the UK so if it were similar, nobody who arrived in Germany from outside the EU before the end of 2013 would be able to get their citizenship and move to the UK before the end of freedom of movement. It’s also likely isn’t it that after Brexit/after transition we would actually enforce the ‘get a job or go home’ rule which we currently don’t enforce.

Edit: changed date from 2012 to 2013, got my maths wrong.

 

[Bigcol49]

I refer you to the wise words of Evelyn Beatrice Hall who famously penned the line "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

I'm always wary of those who would shut down debate or deny a platform...

Hi!
I defend your right to free speech, too, but I defer to the wisdom of keeping your mouth shut when circumstances demand. Please feel free to expound your version of the truth, but is this forum really the place for pseudo-political argy bargy?
"Like apples of gold in settings of silver Is a word spoken in right circumstances."
Proverbs 25:11
I deferred from commenting on your post, especially the remarks about immigration, as I do not wish to cause offence.

 

[Thumper]

An interesting read, written by the MEP for the South West, on the apparently illegal tactics employed by the Vote Leave campaign in the run up to the referendum. What I did not previously know is that prima facie evidence of illegal activity has already been established.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2046032798952700&id=1547078692181449

It's for reasons like this that I am rapidly beginning to believe that a revote is the more democratic option.