Brewing in an office/place of work - Is it legal?

[stantheman]

Hi all,

First time poster and new to the world of homebrewing. Have given these (and other) forums a good scan and I've not found anything that answers my predicament; I was hoping someone here could help!

I'm looking at setting up a small brewing operation at my workplace, an office in central London. I've been given a small budget and we are fortunate enough to have ample space in our cellar. It'll be a very small operation to begin with - I've never brewed anything more than a cup of tea before, so I'm planning on starting out with standard brewkits and progressing from there.

The issue: our landlord needs convincing of our plans. They'd be fine with it so long as I can provide documentary evidence that what I'm planning on doing is legal and above board.

I have looked and looked online about brewing in a place of work to no avail. I've rung the council (Camden) and nobody there has a clue. If it's irrelevant that it's a place of work, can someone point me in the direction of where this is stated? Who should I contact etc? As I say, given it's small scale, there may well be no issue at all; but where can I find the evidence to show this? And what are the parameters within which we can brew before we have to contact someone?

Questions, questions...

Any guidance would be greatly appreciated!

 

[oldbloke]

Without the relevant licensing, brewing must be for domestic use only. What this really means is that you can't sell it (or, technically, give it away).
As long as it's all for you (and I'd imagine your organisation would count as a single You for this purpose) I think you'll be OK.
But I have no idea how/where you'd get documentary proof of that position, and I may be wrong anyway. People who know more will be along shortly...
Also of course, your tenancy agreement and any laws relevant to the use of the building would need to be checked.

 

[andyakameatloaf]

As the previous poster noted, first of all give your tenancy agreements and other documents pertaining to your own property in particular a good reading first - if you can find any information in there stating you can't do it then as it's a legally binding document, you are forbidden regardless of the actual laws on it.

Secondly, i would forgo the council. The body that regulates alcohol production is HMRC. Try looking at the beer production section of the HMRC website. As far as i can see, that is a more or less complete guide to the regulations of brewing. If you can't find what you need clearly here, try ringing HMRC for more info.

Failing that, you could always try asking the Citizen's Advice Bureau, they are a charity and therefore free, and they will give legal info.

If it is documentary evidence that you need, but you cannot find any that specifically states one way or another for your case, I'd suggest ringing up HMRC with your landlord present, and putting him on the phone to them.

Hope this helps. Also, out of interest - what are these office jobs that encourage beer brewing, and what qualifications do i need?!

 

[BigYin]

Is the main definition not in fact nothing to do with where you brew it, but what you do with it once it's an alchoholic brew?? For your own exclusive consumption is fine, and for reward (money, or 'payment in kind') then it requires the HMRC to be informed and all the relevant taxes paid..

 

[RobWalker]

i don't think you'll run into any problems. the blokes at the home brew store brew in their back room too :lol: there are a lot of grey areas with stuff like this, but as said, as long as it's not being sold or used for profit, i should think you'll be okay.

 

[graysalchemy]

If you company is planning on using it even to give away then that would not be allowed no matter where you brewed it. It as people have said only for domestic consumption, Strictly speaking only for yourself.

 

[andyakameatloaf]

I found the actual legislation for the production of alcohol in the UK. it's available here at [url="http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1979/4/contents"]http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1979/4/contents[/url].
(up to date provisions as of 20/04/2013)

You want to be looking from page 27 downwards for beer.
I've given it a skim and to my knowledge there is nothing that mentions the brewing location requires licensing, or that specific properties (commercial or otherwise) are banned from being used to brew, providing that the beer is for "domestic use", or if it is a research based activity. I don't know what the reason is that you are wanting to brew at work, but as others have said, if you are going to sell, or otherwise give the brewed beer to anybody else (even for free) then it is illegal without the proper licence.

Also, there are provisions that basically state that it is down to the Commissioner's discretion as to whether or not the beer may be deemed for domestic use, and if there is more than one person involved in the brewing (and certainly thereby the drinking) of the beer, I think you may have a hard time convincing them that it is for domestic use.

That being said, the actual legislation does not state that it is illegal, which to me would suggest that it is legal although easily challengable.

so if I were you, I would give the beer section of that legislation a quick read (its not overly complicated or jargony), print it out and hand it to your landlord, and point out to him that there is nothing stating that you may not do it.

 

[calumscott]

I found the actual legislation for the production of alcohol in the UK. it's available here.

N-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O!!!!!!

That's the original Act. For goodness sake do not take ANYTHING in there as gospel!!!

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1979/4/contents

...has all the amendments over the intervening 34 years!!!

 

[calumscott]

Oh, and yes, it's legal.

So long as it's "for domestic use". So, if you're brewing it so you and your workmates can have a Friday afternoon pint that would be fine.

If you're brewing it so that your company can use it for any purpose in connection with its business, that wouldn't be fine. Take the example of a client having a beer - that would be seen as corporate entertainment and that cannot be squared away as domestic in any sense.

The thing is though that there are other parties involved, your company and your landlord. Either could come back to bite you. Why wouldn't you just brew your own beers at home and share them between you???

 

[andyakameatloaf]

I found the actual legislation for the production of alcohol in the UK. it's available here.

N-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O!!!!!!

That's the original Act. For goodness sake do not take ANYTHING in there as gospel!!!

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1979/4/contents

...has all the amendments over the intervening 34 years!!!

whoopsie! I'm gonna go ahead and edit my post accordingly.
I was thinking £15 per 36 gallons was cheap for excise duty...

 

[calumscott]

whoopsie! I'm gonna go ahead and edit my post accordingly.
I was thinking £15 per 36 gallons was cheap for excise duty...

:rofl:

 

[RobWalker]

interestingly in that article cider is charged at;

F3£166.70] per hectolitre in the case of sparkling cider of a strength exceeding 5.5 per cent.;

and...

[F6£25.61] per hectolitre in any other case.]]

amazing that a fizzy 6% cider would have 6x the duty of a still one

 

[calumscott]

Careful, Rob!! Once you start reading this stuff you can't stop...

...our legislature is:

a) Wordy
b) Convoluted
c) Archaic in places
d) Downright crazy in places

but most of all

e) Ruddy fascinating!

It's little wonder lawyers make a mint; understanding it takes a hell of a lot of time and patience.

 

[rpt]

Oh, and yes, it's legal.

So long as it's "for domestic use". So, if you're brewing it so you and your workmates can have a Friday afternoon pint that would be fine.

Not convinced. I don't think having a piss up at work is domestic. Technically you can't even give the beer away so I think you would be on shaky ground.

Also, the HMRC regulations are only one part of the legal story - they are only to do with excise duty. There are also the other legal implications: health and safety, planning permission plus other issues such as insurance (would it invalidate buildings, contents or even employer's liability insurance?).

 

[calumscott]

Oh, and yes, it's legal.

So long as it's "for domestic use". So, if you're brewing it so you and your workmates can have a Friday afternoon pint that would be fine.

Not convinced. I don't think having a piss up at work is domestic. Technically you can't even give the beer away so I think you would be on shaky ground.

Where on earth did you hear that? The point, as I see it, of the phrase "domestic use" (and here I make the distinction - domestic USE not CONSUMPTION) is that you can do with your home brewed ale, exactly what you might do with your shop bought ale. There is nothing to suggest that me buying a crate of Wychwood's finest and sharing it among my colleagues is in any way not domestic. My money, my beer, my mates - purely coincidental that they happen to work for the same company.

So by that measure, brewing a beer to share in exactly the same way is perfectly fine.

However, brewing a beer for use BY the company is not fine. E.g. if there were clients present and business was being conducted during the consumption of said beer.

Also, the HMRC regulations are only one part of the legal story - they are only to do with excise duty. There are also the other legal implications: health and safety, planning permission plus other issues such as insurance (would it invalidate buildings, contents or even employer's liability insurance?).

Yes, those should be the OP's concerns. It's not the legality as far as UK legislature that's the problem, it's the possible hot water the OP could get into regarding the contractual obligations of the building/landlord/insurance/other employees etc etc.

 

[rpt]

Firstly, it's at work, so it isn't domestic.

Secondly, if you sold your bottles of Wychwood you would be guilty of selling alcohol without a licence. If you sold your bottles of homebrew you would also be guilty of not paying the duty on them. So they are not equivalent.

I'm not a lawyer and I don't know if this has ever been tested in court. But I would err on the side of caution.

 

[calumscott]

Firstly, it's at work, so it isn't domestic.

The use of the beer IS domestic if I personally buy some beer for my colleagues. Not the company buying it, me, a treat for my friends at work. There is no business involved, it is a matter of circumstance that the people I share it with work for the same company.

Secondly, if you sold your bottles of Wychwood you would be guilty of selling alcohol without a licence. If you sold your bottles of homebrew you would also be guilty of not paying the duty on them. So they are not equivalent.

There is no talk whatsoever of sale from the OP or anyone else, the question is about brewing in a workplace. You would be guilty of a whole lot more than just not paying duty, legislative compliance in many areas, most likely personal tax, health and safety, public liability etc etc.

I'm not a lawyer and I don't know if this has ever been tested in court. But I would err on the side of caution.

The test would be around the definition of "domestic use". It is perfectly sensible to assume that means "as you would use beer you would otherwise personally buy".

FWIW I intend to do exactly this for the summer. Next month I'll be getting a 40l APA-style brew on for a summer drinkie-poo with all my colleagues. The only difference to the OP is that of brewing on premise. Not really appropriate in our new build managed office! :lol:

 

[rpt]

Firstly, it's at work, so it isn't domestic.

The use of the beer IS domestic if I personally buy some beer for my colleagues. Not the company buying it, me, a treat for my friends at work. There is no business involved, it is a matter of circumstance that the people I share it with work for the same company.

According to the Macmillan dictionary domestic is "relating to people's homes and family life".

Secondly, if you sold your bottles of Wychwood you would be guilty of selling alcohol without a licence. If you sold your bottles of homebrew you would also be guilty of not paying the duty on them. So they are not equivalent.

There is no talk whatsoever of sale from the OP or anyone else, the question is about brewing in a workplace. You would be guilty of a whole lot more than just not paying duty, legislative compliance in many areas, most likely personal tax, health and safety, public liability etc etc.

This was in reference to your comment "you can do with your home brewed ale, exactly what you might do with your shop bought ale".

I'm not a lawyer and I don't know if this has ever been tested in court. But I would err on the side of caution.

The test would be around the definition of "domestic use". It is perfectly sensible to assume that means "as you would use beer you would otherwise personally buy".

I think "relating to people's homes and family life" is more likely to be the test used by a court.

 

[calumscott]

Firstly, it's at work, so it isn't domestic.

The use of the beer IS domestic if I personally buy some beer for my colleagues. Not the company buying it, me, a treat for my friends at work. There is no business involved, it is a matter of circumstance that the people I share it with work for the same company.

According to the Macmillan dictionary domestic is "relating to people's homes and family life".

Secondly, if you sold your bottles of Wychwood you would be guilty of selling alcohol without a licence. If you sold your bottles of homebrew you would also be guilty of not paying the duty on them. So they are not equivalent.

There is no talk whatsoever of sale from the OP or anyone else, the question is about brewing in a workplace. You would be guilty of a whole lot more than just not paying duty, legislative compliance in many areas, most likely personal tax, health and safety, public liability etc etc.

This was in reference to your comment "you can do with your home brewed ale, exactly what you might do with your shop bought ale".

I can't sell my shop bought Wychwood beer any more than I can my homebrew! I'd need to be licenced for a start!

I'm not a lawyer and I don't know if this has ever been tested in court. But I would err on the side of caution.

The test would be around the definition of "domestic use". It is perfectly sensible to assume that means "as you would use beer you would otherwise personally buy".

I think "relating to people's homes and family life" is more likely to be the test used by a court.

I see no problem with that. To brew a beer and share it with friends from work is logically no different to brewing it and taking a crate round to a non-workmate's house to watch the game. To use the the definition in that way would require proving that colleagues formed no part of home and family life - as all of us who work with others know, colleagues, in the main, form part of one's social and thereby family, life even if they don't "pop round for coffee" or whatever. The distinction would have to be drawn from the other side - that they were purely colleagues and there was no social aspect to the relationship. Which would be next to impossible given that they've all entered into a communal craft/hobby together...

Unless of course you are suggesting that homebrew can only be used WITHIN the home which is a completely different argument.

I think it is perfectly fair to assume that, certainly in the situation of just getting a brew on to share with colleagues, there will be no question of its legality (at least in terms of ALDA).

There is one portion of the OP's post that seems questionable though: "It'll be a very small operation to begin with". If by that they mean that they'll brew one and share the bottles out now and again then that seems to be fine. If however they are looking to build something more than that then the ground gets shakier.

 

[Maffa]

Calling all lawers, barristers and high court judges, Do we have a home brewer in the house with a law degree?

Facinating topic and knowing the outcome, may have to consult my manager for the summer BBQ!