Brew in a bag. Cloudy Beer. <help please!>

[haggis_trap]

Hi guys,

First post here.

I have done a few different brews (kit, extract) and recently graduated to Brew In A Bag.
Couple of my recent brews have finished frustratingly cloudy and with a disappointing head.
From googling about it seems that my MASH temperature was likely too low - this results in starch-haze and a beer that is a little watery ?

I intended to mash the grain at 66C - which should have been the sweet spot.
However : based on results / available evidence I am guessing in reality the grain temperature was perhaps lower that this ?

My set up is a brew kettle with thermometer controlling the heating element to regulate the temperature.
Even if I stir the mash lots the temperature reading still dependent on location of thermometer in the brew kettle.

Does this hypothesis make sense ?
Anyone had similar problems ?
Possible solutions ?

Merry Xmas!
And thanks for thoughts in advance.

Doug.

 

[foxy]

Where to look from the start, 1) grain crush. 2) Mash pH 3) Temperature of mash 4) What is getting into the boil? 5) Are you adding anything to the grain bill for foam and head retention? 6) Irish Moss or equivalent for coagulation of proteins, to be left in kettle.
I recently adjusted my mill for a finer crush, though I am not doing BIAB the grain particles which got through the bottom sieve, took me from lifting the basket almost to the boil to take it all out.
As long as you are stirring you are breaking any hot or cold spots in the mash,
think of a commercial mash tun they have a rake raking the grain bed throughout the mash.

 

[haggis_trap]

Thanks for reply :-)

1) Grain crush.
I buy my grain crushed from the store. So this shouldnt be issue.
2) MASH PH...
Never measured it before. but valid point!
Will measure PH as it will eliminate another possible cause.
Though I think Edinburgh water is good for brewing.
3) Temperature of mash.
I think this might be the issue as thermometer was sitting under the bag.
Likely my grain was mashed at colder than the 66C...
Which has given me a nasty starch haze.
4) What is getting in boil...
Just the wort and hops.
5) Are you adding anything to the grain bill for foam and head retention?
Not on recent brew. Adding some oats or crystal (unfermentables) would help head retention.
However given my lager is cloudy I don't think it is the root cause.
6) Irish Moss or equivalent for coagulation of proteins, to be left in kettle.
Another good suggestion!

Thanks for comprehensive list!

 

[Obadiah Boondoggle]

Hi guys,

First post here.

I have done a few different brews (kit, extract) and recently graduated to Brew In A Bag.
Couple of my recent brews have finished frustratingly cloudy and with a disappointing head.
From googling about it seems that my MASH temperature was likely too low - this results in starch-haze and a beer that is a little watery ?

I intended to mash the grain at 66C - which should have been the sweet spot.
However : based on results / available evidence I am guessing in reality the grain temperature was perhaps lower that this ?

My set up is a brew kettle with thermometer controlling the heating element to regulate the temperature.
Even if I stir the mash lots the temperature reading still dependent on location of thermometer in the brew kettle.

Does this hypothesis make sense ?
Anyone had similar problems ?
Possible solutions ?

Merry Xmas!
And thanks for thoughts in advance.

Doug.

Your hypothesis makes sense to me

When you say a thermometer controlling the temperature do you mean a thermostat adjusting it automatically or are you taking the manual reading and turning the heating up or down?

Have you considered the issue of strike temperature?

If your mash water is at 66C - when you put in your ingredients these will be at a much lower temperature (my garage is at a constant 3C) - so the mash temperature will fall below 66

 

[foxy]

Thanks for reply :-)

1) Grain crush.
I buy my grain crushed from the store. So this shouldnt be issue.
2) MASH PH...
Never measured it before. but valid point!
Will measure PH as it will eliminate another possible cause.
Though I think Edinburgh water is good for brewing.
3) Temperature of mash.
I think this might be the issue as thermometer was sitting under the bag.
Likely my grain was mashed at colder than the 66C...
Which has given me a nasty starch haze.
4) What is getting in boil...
Just the wort and hops.
5) Are you adding anything to the grain bill for foam and head retention?
Not on recent brew. Adding some oats or crystal (unfermentables) would help head retention.
However given my lager is cloudy I don't think it is the root cause.
6) Irish Moss or equivalent for coagulation of proteins, to be left in kettle.
Another good suggestion!

Thanks for comprehensive list!

Then number 6 is the main culprit, clean, clear wort into the fermenter = clear beer out. All your hot break material is going into the fermenter, cold crash on completion of ferment -1 C the yeast and any dry hops will drop out.
Get that sorted first then look at your pH, as OB asked, it is your temperature probe you are meaning by thermometer? The probe should be close to the heat source, anywhere else you will be overshooting your temperature.

Clear wort into the fermenter will lead to a clear, cleaner tasting beer out.

 

[haggis_trap]

When you say a thermometer controlling the temperature

Good question!
I have a big metal kettle with an electric heating element on the side.
The power for the heating element is connect to an STC-100 digital thermometer / thermostat that can turn the power to heating element on and off.
So I can set the temperature to (say) 66C for the "Brew In A Bag" MASH and it should regulate for 60 minutes.
If the temperature drops below 66C then digital thermostat turns the heating element of for 30 seconds.
Usually I heat water to 70C. Then add 5kg of grain takes it down to ~65/66C.

I place the heat probe just above the heating element (which is protected from the grain bag by a false bottom to stop it burning through).
My *guess* is that while this reads 66C the grain itself was perhaps a couple degrees cooler ?
Outcome is giving me what I believe to be starch haze - cloudy beer with little head and a slightly watery taste.

Then number 6 is the main culprit

You think adding Irish Moss will help solve this ?
Certainly cant do any harm!

Appreciate the advice guys.
The obvious problem with home brew is the number of variables.
... Figuring out which inputs affects the output not easy when it takes 6 weeks to do a brew.
I am determined to get the next one perfect!

 

[Obadiah Boondoggle]

Good question!
I have a big metal kettle with an electric heating element on the side.
The power for the heating element is connect to an STC-100 digital thermometer / thermostat that can turn the power to heating element on and off.
So I can set the temperature to (say) 66C for the "Brew In A Bag" MASH and it should regulate for 60 minutes.
If the temperature drops below 66C then digital thermostat turns the heating element of for 30 seconds.
Usually I heat water to 70C. Then add 5kg of grain takes it down to ~65/66C.

I place the heat probe just above the heating element (which is protected from the grain bag by a false bottom to stop it burning through).
My *guess* is that while this reads 66C the grain itself was perhaps a couple degrees cooler ?
Outcome is giving me what I believe to be starch haze - cloudy beer with little head and a slightly watery taste.



You think adding Irish Moss will help solve this ?
Certainly cant do any harm!

Appreciate the advice guys.
The obvious problem with home brew is the number of variables.
... Figuring out which inputs affects the output not easy when it takes 6 weeks to do a brew.
I am determined to get the next one perfect!

Again no expert here but I guess your guess is correct

The digital thermometer is turning the power on and off based on the temperature near the heating element

In particular at this time of year there may well be a significant difference between the top and bottom of the mash tun

How well insulated is your mash tun?

When I ferment I use an Inkbird digital thermometer to control the temperature and an Ispindel to monitor the progress

There is often a 3C difference between the temp the Ispindel registers (which, of course, is floating on the top) and that which the Inkbird registers (I try and locate the probe about half way up)

As you say many variables to consider

 

[haggis_trap]

How well insulated is your mash tun?

none at all...
I am just using the same metal kettle for the mash and boil : which is the supposed simplicity of brew in a bag.
I assumed (perhaps wrongly) that so long as I stirred the mash every 15 minutes the thermostat would keep it regulated well enough.

There is often a 3C difference between the temp the Ispindel registers (which, of course, is floating on the top) and that which the Inkbird registers (I try and locate the probe about half way up)

that is a good data point.
i forced the probe to sit at bottom of my kettle.

however 66C -3C = 63C which would explain my starch-haze.

 

[foxy]

I am determined to get the next one perfect!

That will never happen, one should never be satisfied with their last beer it is a constant search for improvement, just be thankful you aren't a wine producer and you have to wait a year to have another crack at it.

Irish moss will help enormously, it will clump all the hot break together, let it settle for an hour or two then get the clear wort into the fermenter.

 

[haggis_trap]

^ ha ha....
I currently have 30 bottles of slightly sub standard beer to chew through.
I would give it a 5/10.

Not rank enough to pour down drain. But not entirely enjoyable either.
Problem is that when you brew a bad one you cant give it away to friends!

Will give the Irish moss a go.
Plus second thermometer for the mash seems like a very good shout too...

 

[Obadiah Boondoggle]

Problem is that when you brew a bad one you cant give it away to friends!

My solution to that problem has always been to have no friends, then you can drink it all

Will give the Irish moss a go.

Protafloc is better

 

[Drunkula]

https://brulosophy.com/2015/01/05/the-gelatin-effect-exbeeriment-results/

 

[GeorgieV]

however 66C -3C = 63C which would explain my starch-haze.

According to the almighty Wikipedia (Mashing - Wikipedia) 63C is in the range of both alpha and beta amylase. It's slightly on the lower side so should theoretically result in more fermentable sugars. This shouldn't impact the clarity. I mash in a large stock pot wrapped in a blanket on an insulated surface. It never loses more than 1 deg. C during the mash (room temperature 19 to 20 C ). Sometimes it needs more than 1 hour. I do starch test with iodine tincture towards the end of the mash to check if it needs more time.
As it was pointed out, Irish moss, Protafloc or similar help a lot.
I also use gelatine after the fermentation is complete because I can't properly cold crash (except in the winter).