Bottling without priming

[Jmcm]

Hi,

I've been back brewing for about 2 years now, always all grain. I'm a very diligent brewer and I always get a good mash extraction and good clean fermentations.

I rack to a pressure barrel and the beer comes out great, but as soon as I start to bottle... things go wrong.

I've tried 1/2 teaspoon per 500ml bottle, sugar tabs and batch priming and EVERY time I'm left with bottle bombs. The beer still tastes good, there's no infection there, but I'm left with maybe 200mls out of a 500ml bottle.

Any advice? My brewing book, Graham Wheeler, suggests that a properly brewed beer doesn't need priming and will come into condition on it's own. Does anyone do this? Just leave the beer in bottle for several months and let it condition itself?

I tend to brew dark beers suitable for aging' stouts, porters, quadrupels etc - though planning an IPA soon.

HELP PLEASE!

J

 

[Halfacrem]

I've never bottled without priming, so I can't help with that, I'm afraid.

Are you certain the fermentation is finished when you rack to the PB or bottle? I imagine a PB will be more forgiving if primary fermentation hasn't finished as excess pressure would blow off, however if you bottle and prime before fermentation is complete, that might then cause your issues?

 

[Jmcm]

Hi,

Thanks for your thoughts.

I'd considered this as well, but I normally leave in the primary for two weeks as standard and the gravity has remained the same for c. 1 week normally... Perhaps temperature flux causes the last stages to stall and hence the bottling kicks it back to life?

 

[Halfacrem]

Hi,

Thanks for your thoughts.

I'd considered this as well, but I normally leave in the primary for two weeks as standard and the gravity has remained the same for c. 1 week normally... Perhaps temperature flux causes the last stages to stall and hence the bottling kicks it back to life?

It might be that. Do you usually hit your Final Gravity target, or does it stop short?

 

[jeg3]

I've tried bottling without priming and it works but takes a long time.

For a few of my ales I've done 4 weeks in the keg followed by six weeks in the bottle. The beer is already slightly carbonated after 4w in the keg, so another 6w in the bottle carbonates it nicely.

The only downside is 10w conditioning. I still keg condition for a few weeks, but add 20-40g sugar for 40 bottles and bottle condition for 4 weeks.

 

[geetee]

Most commercial brewers will try to rack to cask without priming and this could also apply to bottle conditioned not filtered carbonated ales.
To do this you would stop the fermentation 2° gravity above final target and then cool condition. The theory is that this remaining two degrees will then provide for the yeast for secondary.

For home brewers it is not always easy to just stop your fermentation to order with remaining 2° unless you check it every few hours and then how do you actually stop it reliably? If you do you then have to get the yeast to restart with the remaining fermentables by increasing temperature and then condition.

I don't think it is a repeatable process for every brew due to the need for constant vigilance but if you do happen to measure gravity and it is just 2 degrees above you could then cold crash and use either minimal or no priming sugar.
It's not something I would like to rely on batch after batch but it will work only it will take time as you indicate.

 

[Jmcm]

Thanks for the responses.

I always rack to a pressure barrel first for a few months, before bottling, so I'm priming twice, perhaps I'll just prime in the keg and not the bottle for my next batch and see how that works out.

 

[Halfacrem]

Thanks for the responses.

I always rack to a pressure barrel first for a few months, before bottling, so I'm priming twice, perhaps I'll just prime in the keg and not the bottle for my next batch and see how that works out.

So you rack and prime to a PB, leave it two months, then bottle directly from the PB with extra priming sugar?

You'd be much better off bottling at the same time as you rack to the PB, or just racking to the PB and drinking from there after carbonation has been completed. I'm not sure what you're suggesting there would be considered best practice?

EDIT: And this would be the cause of your bottle bombs. You're adding sugar to already conditioned Beer!

 

[jeg3]

Yeah you're over-carbonating the beer. It would probably carbonate in the PB without priming over a few months

 

[Jmcm]

This is interesting... I'm a big believer that too many points of view can confuse things, hence I follow Graham Wheelers book to a tee, but nothing else.

Graham Wheeler says "The barbaric home-brew practice of bottling straight from the fermentation vessel should be avoided if at all possible. All beer destined to be bottles should have dropped bright before bottling"

Hence I've always matured in cask (primed) before bottling.

 

[Cwrw666]

I'd agree with everyone else. As the beer is already carbonated, which means it has pressure built up above it in the PB, plus dissolved CO2 in the beer itself, when you re-prime you're adding way too much extra CO2. If you only leave an inch above the beer in the bottle then to get this tiny space up to pressure is going to need a really small amount of priming sugar.
Personally if I were you I'd just give the beer an extra week or so in the FV after it's stopped fermenting, but somewhere cold to encourage the beer to clear. You can leave beer on the trub in the FV for quite a few weeks without ill effects - I had one brew that was really reluctant to get down to a reasonable FG and it ended up taking over 6 weeks in the FV, and turned out very nice.

 

[Halfacrem]

Always willing to learn new techniques.

I'm a bit confused about the process. Does he suggest you rack to a pressure barrel, prime with sugar, leave for several weeks, then transfer to bottles, adding more priming sugar?

 

[Jmcm]

Basically yes... I'll scan the pages tomorrow and upload a link.

J

 

[Halfacrem]

On a similar theme, I'm just draining off the last of an all grain Harvest Pale ale, which has been in a pressure barrel since early October. All the carbonation has gone out of it, but as it's nicely matured it's tasting absolutely fantastic.

I reckon barreling without any priming sugar might be worth a go; Just letting a nice ale barrel mature for 2 or 3 months and letting the flavour and body develop on their own.

 

[jeg3]

Basically yes... I'll scan the pages tomorrow and upload a link.

J

That's not how I read it, in fact the opposite, I interpreted it as mature in the cask without priming, then bottle without priming

 

[jeg3]

This is paraphrased from the latest version of his "Brew Your Own British Real Ale"

 

[McMullan]

When do you decide it's time to rack to you PB, Jmcm?

 

[Hoppyland]

Hence I've always matured in cask (primed) before bottling.

For my two pennorth, I reckon your main problem is priming the beer in your cask, especially if it's a pressure barrel. I think I used to follow the same Graham Wheeler advice as you (I remember the "barbaric" quote!), and his book was a revelation to me at the time (1980s??). For years I did bottle with no priming, and generally with very good results (except for the very long wait!!)
However, whilst I did use a pressure barrel as a cask, I didn't prime it, and I always released any apparent pressure a couple of days before bottling. Even if you just drop the beer (as opposed to siphoning it) then I find any obvious effervescence to be a total nightmare in getting the bottle full. However, there was always a slight "sparkle" in the beer, if you couldn't see it you could feel it in the mouth, and this intensified in the bottle over a month or two.
So..... I think Halfacrem is right - you're adding sugar to beer that's already conditioned, and I reckon jeg3 is spot on in saying that it would carbonate anyway in the PB over several months. But unless you're Bill Gates, that's an expensive way of casking beer before bottling!
I've recently relocated to the Isle of Skye, and I'm starting again pretty well from scratch. What seems to be working well at the moment is:
Primary fermenter: 5 - 7 days.
Secondary fermenter: 7 - 10 days (any dry hopping in here).
"Cask": 14 - 20 days, then bottle. ("Cask" is a 25l pvc [edit: no, it's HDPE! ] container under airlock, no pressure)
Prime: 3 tablespoons of table sugar (in solution, boiled & cooled), stirred into the 25l cask 1 day before bottling.
It'll still need many weeks to properly condition, though.

I also suspect that, as you brew darker beers, you're more likely to have a lot of "slow fermentables" that will gradually increase carbonation. But this is only my supposition, and I'd look forward to thought on this from more experienced members!!

 

[Jmcm]

That's not how I read it, in fact the opposite, I interpreted it as mature in the cask without priming, then bottle without priming

Jings! I've jsut reread it - your right! He says don't prime in cask unless it's a cheap extract brew! Well that explains a lot...

When do you decide it's time to rack to you PB, Jmcm?

I aim for 1/4 of initial gravity i.e. if 1080, I'll rack ideally at 1020 - but at least two weeks normally.

For my two pennorth, I reckon your main problem is priming the beer in your cask, especially if it's a pressure barrel. I think I used to follow the same Graham Wheeler advice as you (I remember the "barbaric" quote!), and his book was a revelation to me at the time (1980s??). For years I did bottle with no priming, and generally with very good results (except for the very long wait!!)
However, whilst I did use a pressure barrel as a cask, I didn't prime it, and I always released any apparent pressure a couple of days before bottling. Even if you just drop the beer (as opposed to siphoning it) then I find any obvious effervescence to be a total nightmare in getting the bottle full. However, there was always a slight "sparkle" in the beer, if you couldn't see it you could feel it in the mouth, and this intensified in the bottle over a month or two.
So..... I think Halfacrem is right - you're adding sugar to beer that's already conditioned, and I reckon jeg3 is spot on in saying that it would carbonate anyway in the PB over several months. But unless you're Bill Gates, that's an expensive way of casking beer before bottling!
I've recently relocated to the Isle of Skye, and I'm starting again pretty well from scratch. What seems to be working well at the moment is:
Primary fermenter: 5 - 7 days.
Secondary fermenter: 7 - 10 days (any dry hopping in here).
"Cask": 14 - 20 days, then bottle. ("Cask" is a 25l pvc [edit: no, it's HDPE! ] container under airlock, no pressure)
Prime: 3 tablespoons of table sugar (in solution, boiled & cooled), stirred into the 25l cask 1 day before bottling.
It'll still need many weeks to properly condition, though.

Again, very interesting... So perhaps I'm doing it the wrong way round? I should rack to PB without priming to mature, then bottle with a little priming sugar?

I love Graham Wheelers book, and certainly I've found it a flawless guide on mashing and primary fermentation - it is very opinionated (which I like) but perhaps I need to reconsider the bottling aspect.

Will try to scan the relevant pages at some point but I'm unrelentingly bust at work (whisky trade) just now.

Great discussion chaps - thanks for the advice.

 

[Halfacrem]

Jings! I've jsut reread it - your right! He says don't prime in cask unless it's a cheap extract brew! Well that explains a lot...



I aim for 1/4 of initial gravity i.e. if 1080, I'll rack ideally at 1020 - but at least two weeks normally.



Again, very interesting... So perhaps I'm doing it the wrong way round? I should rack to PB without priming to mature, then bottle with a little priming sugar?

I love Graham Wheelers book, and certainly I've found it a flawless guide on mashing and primary fermentation - it is very opinionated (which I like) but perhaps I need to reconsider the bottling aspect.

Will try to scan the relevant pages at some point but I'm unrelentingly bust at work (whisky trade) just now.

Great discussion chaps - thanks for the advice.

Nice one. It's all about making the best beer you can, so hopefully you can sort your issue out. Being in the whisky trade, a couple of months maturing in the cask must seem like a breeze compared to Years sitting in a Dunnage warehouse :-)