Boris gone.

[simon12]

Does anyone know if we leave the EU under whatever May does is there a huge scope for it all changing after the next election or are we signed up for years or decades?

 

[Ajhutch]

Does anyone know if we leave the EU under whatever May does is there a huge scope for it all changing after the next election or are we signed up for years or decades?

That’s an excellent question.

I don’t know for sure obviously but instinctively I’d say that it wouldn’t be too hard to move further away from the EU (because we could make that decision unilaterally). Some people think this is Michael Gove’s plan and why he has gone along with the Chequers plan, basically get to March next year, get out and then have a blank slate.

I’d struggle to see how we could quickly move back closer to the EU than the deal we end up with, because the EU would have to be a willing partner in that and it’s not obvious they would be keen on that after seeing this process.

Just my opinion of course.

 

[Dutto]

Does anyone know if we leave the EU under whatever May does is there a huge scope for it all changing after the next election or are we signed up for years or decades?

I'm afraid that because we voted "Leave" and triggered the relevant Articles, we have to leave! (*)

After leaving, even it we are desperate to return, we will be treated as a new applicant and have to jump through the same hoops as other countries trying to join the EU. (**)

The UK attempted to join for many years before we actually joined the EU but this was vetoed by General De Gaulle of France on the basis that the UK would try and stand apart from Europe and thereby disrupt its operations. (***)

Enjoy! :thumb:

Notes:

(*) My understanding is that the UK could at this moment back out of leaving the EU and stay a full member. However, after the 19th March 2019 it becomes irreversible even if there is no solid details of how the operation will work.

(**) The name has changed from the European Economic Community (EEC) to the European Community (EC) and then the European Union (EU). A much vaunted argument by people who voted "Leave" is "I voted to join the EEC and not the EU." This is a valid argument only if the lack of UK Government involvement in the workings of the EEC/EU are taken into account as many of the changes could have been vetoed or modified by the UK.

(***) It's worth noting that a Tory Government under Ted Heath took the UK into the EEC without a referendum immediately after the death of General De Gaulle and then a Labour Government held a Referendum as to whether or not we should stay. The result was 67.2% "stay" and 32.8% "leave" and many people who failed to vote in the recent referendum believed that a two-thirds majority was required before the UK would leave the EU.

Enjoy! :thumb:

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Are you seriously telling me you'd bottomed out the implications of the decision, either way? Or did you just go on your gut?

I am stating a fact the vote was leave or don't leave.

 

[ElvisIsBeer]

I am stating a fact the vote was leave or don't leave.

That's obvious. But you also said you were annoyed at "remainers" saying the people who voted out didn't know what they were voting for.

The general principle behind any democratic vote, you would hope, is that people understand the implications of their actions. Sometimes that is wrapped up in tribalism, sometimes it is habit and sometimes it is a gesture or token. Sometimes it is part of a thoughtful process. Whatever, the vote carries the same value.

Brexiters didn't understand the implications of their vote. In the same way that remainers probably didn't either. However, on balance, I made a judgement that since I didn't have a safe or secure view of the potential future outside of the EU, and because I wasn't prepared to trust openly scheming politicos with no real economic skin in the game, I voted to remain.

That means I can't harness the language of courage or destiny or bravura vainglory.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

the gullible public believed him, and now we are almost up s--t creek unless someone has the wisdom and strength of will to cancel Brexit.

Yet another patronising post by a remainer I hope you remember to apologise when the predictions of doom and gloom do not materialize as the ones predicted for the moment we left didn't!

How can the government cancel Brexit.

 

[ElvisIsBeer]

We're getting dangerously close to being personal again.

Both sides have been happily patronising each others world view for the past 2 and a bit years.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

Brexiters didn't understand the implications of their vote..

Maybe we should ask members who voted to leave the reasoned they did so.

Thread added https://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/threads/brexit-your-vote.77807/

.

 

[Duxuk]

I voted leave to take back control of our own destiny. The EU gave massive amounts of OUR money to Turkey to build a factory to make the Ford Transit which had been made in England since 1967. You have to ask who's side they're on. There are so many other examples of the EU acting directly against our own interests. We're better off on our own than being ruled by our opponents.

 

[Cwrw666]

I voted remain. However, I'm sure we'll do fine after we crash out next march. We are after all a huge economy and I don't see why we're expected to cow tow to the EU for market access. What are they going to give us for access to our markets?

When all the s**t settles down I'm sure all will be well for both us and the rest of the EU. After all we were never really members, we just paid our dues and only ever turned up to throw spanners in the works.

 

[Dutto]

Come on now! Calm down and STOP the personal insults.

Here are the statistics:

• Leave = 17,410,742 = 51.89% of the vote.
• Remain = 16,141,241 = 48.11% of the vote.
• Eligible to Vote = 46,500,001.

Much has been made of the fact that 3.78% more people voted "Leave" than "Remain" but what about the 27.85% of the eligible population (over seven times as many) who DIDN'T VOTE at all?

Here's a question to mull over.

Much has been made about "The democratic desire of the British Public to Leave the EU." In view of the precise nature of the number of eligible voters (the odd number of 46,500,001) there was a potential for a single person to vote either way.

Would this single vote have been an exhibit of "The democratic desire of the British Public"?

No matter which way that person voted, I think not ...

... and neither was the 3.78% difference either!

 

[aj65]

I really don’t think the people who voted remain understand what they voted for , or do they. I mean Cameron went there to ask for not much prior to the vote and came back with even less what does that tell you. It tells me the European Union, and I use the word Union very loosely is not a democracy it reminds me of the old Soviet Union, which maybe the remain voters like the idea of.
If remain voters can’t take being called snowflakes then I would suggest stop calling leave voters all sorts of names.
Sticks and stones and all that

 

[Brianbrewed]

Come on now! Calm down and STOP the personal insults.

Well said.

I would imagine people voted to Leave for a wide variety of reasons.
From an Irish perspective it was very troubling to see a debate on leaving the EU and Northern Ireland nor the Good Friday Agreement was hardly discussed.

It's also interesting that Scotland and Northern Ireland voted, by quite a large margin, to remain.

 

[aj65]

The numbers regarding who voted and how many voted .
This amount voted leave this amount voted stay , the fact remains of the people who are eligible to vote and actually bothered to vote because they care enough to vote the leave side was more.
So now we saying because some people didn’t vote that it’s not a majority, that makes not a shred of difference to me if they are that concerned that should have got there ass down the polling booth

 

[strange-steve]

As someone who neither knows nor cares much about politics, I wonder how the vote would go if they did a do-over now.

 

[aj65]

If we had another vote and leave won again I’m sure we would have a best of 5

 

[aj65]

Ps..Come on England

 

[IainM]

It cracks me up than on the run up to the referendum loads of different models were discussed, the Norway route, the Switzerland option, the Canada model, and variations there of. David Davis himself espoused the virtues of the Norway model before the referendum and Liam Fox didn't pin his stripes to leaving the customs union until almost a month after the vote. Nevertheless, after the vote, leavers claim that everyone knew it was going to be a "hard" leave from the beginning. They bring up evidence like the leaflet Cameron sent out prior to the referendum, which states that we would leave the single market and the customs union, then in the same breath deride the leaflet as "project fear" propaganda. The fact of the matter is there was no official plan for how we left, what leaving would mean or what our future relationship would be.

 

[Pope]

Back to the man at hand: Boris Johnson. It has come to light that he in fact lied in his resignation letter. (No, I'm not surprised either)

In his resignation letter he stated, "“If a country cannot pass a law to save the lives of female cyclists — when that proposal is supported at every level of UK Government — then I don’t see how that country can truly be called independent.”

Firstly, the regulation he referred to was actually put forward by the European Parliament with 570 MEPS voting for and 88 MEPS voting against. Secondly, the laws have been passed. Thirdly (and crucially) a government spokesperson in 2014 stated, "Where we are not supporting European Parliament proposals, it is simply because they will not produce practical changes in cab design and could lead to additional bureaucracy for Britain.” So not supported at every level of UK government then.

It gets worse though. He knows full well that the UK Government opposed the proposals, because he stated in 2014, "If these amendments, supported by dozens of cities across Europe, can succeed, we can save literally hundreds of lives across the EU in years to come. I am deeply concerned at the position of the British Government and urge them to embrace this vital issue.”

https://www.channel4.com/news/factc...u-safety-regulation-in-his-resignation-letter

The man has no shame, no principles and no integrity. If people continue to say how they like this man, they are either burying their heads in the sand or actually approve of this charlatan behaviour.

 

[Chippy_Tea]

If remain voters can’t take being called snowflakes then I would suggest stop calling leave voters all sorts of names.
Sticks and stones and all that

I am getting a little tired of people calling those who chose to leave cclueless or words to that effect.