black beer with less bitterness from grain

[Frisp]

Midnight wheat if you can get it will give you the dark colour as used in Black IPA's. Chocolate malt instead of roasted barley's which is where the bitterness comes from also you can use Carafe 1,2 and 3 the ones that are huskless which again are less bitter. If you want the colour use patent black but either steep or throw it in the mash for the last 10 minutes to give the colour and less bitterness/astringency

What sort of % of Carafe 3 would I likely need in a grainbill to get the blackness of an irish stout?

 

[The Baron]

Carafa 3 is the darkest but do make sure it is the huskless which is less bitter
% wise if you use a recipe builder such as brewers Friend or Brewfather just add in and watch the EBC until it gets to somewhere near 40+ IMO, Ps do not go above about 5% again that is me but some will go higher if you like the taste Carafa3.
You can add some of it in the Mash out so as it gives the colour with less flavour if you need to add more or even all of it if you do not want much of the flavour from the Carafa

 

[foxy]

What sort of % of Carafe 3 would I likely need in a grainbill to get the blackness of an irish stout?

If for instance, you are using Brewers Friend to formulate your brew, whatever dark malt you use will give you the colour. If you are going to put it in late in the mash as I have suggested then the app will come up with an addition. 'Late addition mash', the colour will come up also.

 

[Cwrw666]

The reason I do the steep method was entirely because of Foxys advice. Cheers mate, works a treat. Helped because I don't need water additions for a pale mash.

 

[Sadfield]

The reason I do the steep method was entirely because of Foxys advice. Cheers mate, works a treat. Helped because I don't need water additions for a pale mash.

Makes perfect sense in this scenario.

For those that need to add acid to brew a pale, it doesn't. It's taking one pH reducing mechanism out and replacing it with another. Then adding the first back as the grains are needed to make a dark beer. Extra work and ingredients for the same end point.

 

[Alan_Reginato]

We have a pretty soft water here. Sometimes alkalinity goes low as 5. Even making stouts, I had to do some salt additions, mainly to reach about 50 to 100 ppm of calcium. The pH always was in the range. 5.6 to 5.3. Even with the early mash in of dark malts.

Never did acid additions.

In the beginning, I didn't treated the water at all and never had problems in the mash.

So, I see no point in avoid dark malts in the beginning of mash, if the issue is pH. Just add less acid or none, if it's the case.

Bitterness and astringency is another thing. And huskless grains may be the answer.

 

[dad_of_jon]

Or you could, if you aren't already, just reduce hop bittering* to make space for the natural bitterness from the roasted grains, instead of adding bitterness onto bitterness. Keeping your grist as intended.

*Or, use a smoother bittering hop, or switch to First Wort hopping.

My uber dark quad/impy's use little or no hops at all.

30/10/2023 - brew 85 - ris-kier business
Mangrove Jacks French Saison Yeast M29 (26-32)
Spray Dried Malt Extract Amber 1kg
Belgian Candi Sugar Rocks Dark 500g
Simpsons Malt - Roasted Barley 500g
Simpsons Malt - Chocolate Malt 500g
Simpsons Malt - Crystal Dark Crushed 500g
Spraymalt Dark 2kg
710g GS
100g bobek 2.5% AA
20 litres tap water treated with campden
5.5 liters taken for mash
3.66 liters per kg mash thickness
strike water temp 72.3c for a mash temp of 67c
80 min mash.
reduce water in fv to 10l topping up brew pot to 6 litres
add gs
10 min boil 50 min flameout
18.5 l 1.099 at 29c = 1.099 as hydrometer is .02 out
20/11/2023 - 1.014

 

[RichardM]

Ref. Ronald Pattinson and "Shut up about Barclay-Perkins", you could also use caramel to make your stout/dark beer black (many Stout brewers did this at bottling/cask filling time).

You could also use black food colouring I suppose, if we're going down that route

Didn't they use gravy browning in the WW11

Gravy browning is caramel. I'm sure it was an email ingredient in some early homebrew recipes

 

[foxy]

Makes perfect sense in this scenario.

For those that need to add acid to brew a pale, it doesn't. It's taking one pH reducing mechanism out and replacing it with another. Then adding the first back as the grains are needed to make a dark beer. Extra work and ingredients for the same end point.

How on earth can it be extra work? One adds either salts or acid to reach the pH needed for a pale ale. If the batches are all the same base malts then it is set in stone. The only slight adjustment is when we add flaked adjuncts into the mash. There will be no adjustments needed for any other none- fermentable malts as they don't go into the mash.

 

[Sadfield]

How on earth can it be extra work?

Dosing with acid is more work than not having to, by using the nstural acidification of dark grains in the grist. Adding two lots of grain, instead of one initial mash in, is more work. Is that simple enough for you? Probably not.

 

[foxy]

Dosing with acid is more work than not having to, by using the nstural acidification of dark grains in the grist. Adding two lots of grain, instead of one initial mash in, is more work. Is that simple enough for you? Probably not.

But then you are getting back to what the OP is trying to avoid. This is what the post is all about, reducing the chances of astringency from the grain. Leaving the nonfermentable's out of the mash does this.

"I love a dark malty beer, but the blacker they get the stronger the ashy bitterness gets . Im assuming this is from the roast barley..
I was wathving a Dr Hans vid on ewetoob and he was cold soaking some grain and mentioned that this was a way to get the colour with less astringency... anyone know if this would be a worthwhile thing to do.. grind some roast barley, cold soak it overnight and add the the liquid to the wort just before the boil?"

https://beerandbrewing.com/ask-the-experts-steeping-dark-grains-for-your-beer/

 

[Sadfield]

Ay, probably not.

@foxy It may be one of the many options available to the OP in this instance, but that wasn't the question you asked, when you were speaking in the generic third person.

How on earth can it be extra work? One adds either salts or acid to reach the pH needed for a pale ale.

Although, arguably not the best of the offered solutions, as the OP observed that bitterness is allied to colour. Anecdotally, colour extraction is said to be reduced in a similar way to astringency with this reserved roast malt method.

"I love a dark malty beer, but the blacker they get the stronger the ashy bitterness gets."

 

[foxy]

Ay, probably not.
Anecdotally, colour extraction is said to be reduced in a similar way to astringency with this reserved roast malt method.

"I love a dark malty beer, but the blacker they get the stronger the ashy bitterness gets."

Not on Brewer's friend, the SRM remains the same whether the none fermentables are hot steeped, added at mashout, or put in for the full mash.

 

[Bzee]

I just use roasted barley full mash but think the bitterness it provides needs to mellow for weeks longer than a pale beer.

 

[nidge]

My uber dark quad/impy's use little or no hops at all.

30/10/2023 - brew 85 - ris-kier business
Mangrove Jacks French Saison Yeast M29 (26-32)
Spray Dried Malt Extract Amber 1kg
Belgian Candi Sugar Rocks Dark 500g
Simpsons Malt - Roasted Barley 500g
Simpsons Malt - Chocolate Malt 500g
Simpsons Malt - Crystal Dark Crushed 500g
Spraymalt Dark 2kg
710g GS
100g bobek 2.5% AA
20 litres tap water treated with campden
5.5 liters taken for mash
3.66 liters per kg mash thickness
strike water temp 72.3c for a mash temp of 67c
80 min mash.
reduce water in fv to 10l topping up brew pot to 6 litres
add gs
10 min boil 50 min flameout
18.5 l 1.099 at 29c = 1.099 as hydrometer is .02 out
20/11/2023 - 1.014

That looks like a brew i would like to try making, Whats the 710g GS please, golden syrup?

 

[RichardM]

That looks like a brew i would like to try making, Whats the 710g GS please, golden syrup?

Granulated sugar?
Glucose syrup?