black beer with less bitterness from grain

[Frisp]

I love a dark malty beer, but the blacker they get the stronger the ashy bitterness gets . Im assuming this is from the roast barley..
I was wathving a Dr Hans vid on ewetoob and he was cold soaking some grain and mentioned that this was a way to get the colour with less astringency... anyone know if this would be a worthwhile thing to do.. grind some roast barley, cold soak it overnight and add the the liquid to the wort just before the boil?

 

[Rodcx500z]

You have just jogged my memory, yesterday i made a dark mild and i was going to steep the roasty stuff but forgot 200g, but yeah a few on here do steep the dark grains

 

[Stu's Brews]

Yep that would work. You could also add the roasted barley later in the mash, say 10-15 minutes to go.

Alternatively, you could swap the roasted barley for a dehusked malt like Carafa Special, which will impart less of the astringency/roast character.

 

[Jim Brewster]

Chocolate malt isn't quite as harsh as roasted barely, or even midnight wheat as used in black IPAs but also doesn't have as much maltyness

 

[Agentgonzo]

Chocolate malt isn't quite as harsh as roasted barely, or even midnight wheat as used in black IPAs but also doesn't have as much maltyness

Whilst chocolate malt isn't as harsh, it's not as dark coloured so you have to add more of it to get the same colour beer. I shied away from black malt for a long time, but unable to get the dark colour without the bitterness from chocolate malt, I've done some recently with black malt in smaller quantities than I used for chocolate malt, and have been pleasantly surprised.

Apparently midnight wheat is less bitter than black malt, but I've never tried it.

 

[The Baron]

Midnight wheat if you can get it will give you the dark colour as used in Black IPA's. Chocolate malt instead of roasted barley's which is where the bitterness comes from also you can use Carafe 1,2 and 3 the ones that are huskless which again are less bitter. If you want the colour use patent black but either steep or throw it in the mash for the last 10 minutes to give the colour and less bitterness/astringency

 

[Sadfield]

Or you could, if you aren't already, just reduce hop bittering* to make space for the natural bitterness from the roasted grains, instead of adding bitterness onto bitterness. Keeping your grist as intended.

*Or, use a smoother bittering hop, or switch to First Wort hopping.

 

[Hazelwood Brewery]

Use Carafa Special 3 and/or cold steep the dark grains and add the black liquor towards the end of the boil.

I do both of the above and get lovely roast flavours with little/no roast bitterness. It doesn’t suit all beer styles because that roast bitterness is part of the character for some styles but if you’re brewing for your own taste, who cares, do it and enjoy!

 

[An Ankoù]

I agree with @Hazelwood Brewery about the Carafa Special range. It's made specifically to avoid astringency. i think the astringency comes from the husk and that Weyermann remove the husk before roasting. Another solution, which I'm investigating at the moment, is to use Castle Wheat Black, Château maltings claim there is no astrigency from this malt.

 

[Agentgonzo]

i think the astringency comes from the husk and that Weyermann remove the husk before roasting. Another solution, which I'm investigating at the moment, is to use Castle Wheat Black, Château maltings claim there is no astrigency from this malt.

Which makes sense, as wheat doesn't have a husk (well, it does but it's easy to remove so all brewing wheat has already been dehusked).

 

[LeeH]

I’ve used Carafa in Black IPAs, it’s just what you need.

 

[Cwrw666]

I love a dark malty beer, but the blacker they get the stronger the ashy bitterness gets . Im assuming this is from the roast barley..
I was wathving a Dr Hans vid on ewetoob and he was cold soaking some grain and mentioned that this was a way to get the colour with less astringency... anyone know if this would be a worthwhile thing to do.. grind some roast barley, cold soak it overnight and add the the liquid to the wort just before the boil?

I've been doing a hot steep for the dark grains at the same time as the mash. It allows me not to have to alter my water profile when doing stouts or black IPA so I'm doing a pale ale mash then chucking in the black liquor for the sparge. It has seriously improved my dark beers as they used to be a bit rubbish as my water does good pales.

 

[chthon]

Ref. Ronald Pattinson and "Shut up about Barclay-Perkins", you could also use caramel to make your stout/dark beer black (many Stout brewers did this at bottling/cask filling time).

 

[Agentgonzo]

Ref. Ronald Pattinson and "Shut up about Barclay-Perkins", you could also use caramel to make your stout/dark beer black (many Stout brewers did this at bottling/cask filling time).

You could also use black food colouring I suppose, if we're going down that route

 

[The Baron]

Didn't they use gravy browning in the WW11

 

[foxy]

Adding any non-fermentable grain at mash out will get everything you would want from doing the full mash less any astringency. Mash out at (77C) not only stops the enzymatic conversion of the base malts and makes the mash liquor more fluid but also makes water adjustment a breeze, as you are only adjusting the water for the base malts.
Really just the same as hot steeping or cold steeping but without the added extra steps.

 

[Alan_Reginato]

De-husked/huskless (carafa special) dark malts are a great option. Dark wheat (midnight wheat) is even better. Don't need to worry about cold mash or adding later at mash. Just replace some, a half, all of it. You can try and see what you like better.

 

[foxy]

De-husked/huskless (carafa special) dark malts are a great option. Dark wheat (midnight wheat) is even better. Don't need to worry about cold mash or adding later at mash. Just replace some, a half, all of it. You can try and see what you like better.

True. But again whichever dark grain is used it is going to drop the pH. Whereas adding the none fermentable grain during mash-out including crystal, chocolate, roast, huskless, midnight wheat etc has no impact on the pH as the mash is complete.
By just adding fermentable grains to the mash the pH will almost remain constant making water adjustments easier. After all, they are only added to add colour and additional sweetness so no need to run them throughout the mashing period.

 

[Sadfield]

Only really makes sense if you have low Alkalinity, otherwise your using extra methods to do the job of the dark malt you'll be adding anyway. And adding acidic malt to wort that is already at the ideal pH for the rest of the process. Each to their own.

 

[foxy]

Only really makes sense if you have low Alkalinity, otherwise your using extra methods to do the job of the dark malt you'll be adding anyway. And adding acidic malt to wort that is already at the ideal pH for the rest of the process. Each to their own.

No, it doesn't. Say the buffering capacity of the base malt takes the pH down to 5.6 from the average of tap water pH 7 then the only additions will be either acid or brewing salts to get the water to the level the brewer wants his mash pH to be. This will remain fairly constant with only slight adjustments. There is no need to add the none fermentable grains into the whole mash period. Just mash-out.
Therefore whether brewing a pale ale or a stout using the same base malt the pH adjustment additions remain practically the same.
You are right it is each to his own, I just prefer the easiest route to achieve my mash Ph.