Beer research

[ChrisR73]

Just thought that some of you might find this interesting:

Scientists Just Figured Out a Way to Make Beer Taste Even Better​

Today's tall cylindrical fermentation tanks that have replaced the shorter vats of breweries in the past have tended to negatively impact the taste of the resulting beer – but now scientists have stepped in to improve the taste of our booze.
These tall tanks can produce more beer for less money – they're easier to fill, empty and clean – but their widespread adoption also means excess pressure from the carbon dioxide produced during fermentation, and that affects flavor.

Scientists Just Figured Out a Way to Make Beer Taste Even Better

 

[Jim Brewster]

Interesting. So basically they want to be able to ferment under pressure but keep the esters that pressure fermentation suppresses. Presumably it's Inbev that are doing the funding

I wonder if the yeasts in question class as genetically modified? Makes me wonder whether some commercial yeasts are or do they have to be developed using selection

With this discovery, the researchers were then able to use the CRISPR/Cas9 gene editing technique to engineer the same mutation in other yeast strains. After editing, these strains could better withstand CO2 pressure and better retain their flavor.

 

[The Baron]

Well from what I can see its one in the nose for the pressure fermenters, I too wonder if they are genetically modifying the yeasts and if so should it not be declared to the end user?

 

[Clint]

I wondered where my extra toes came from...

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I wonder if the yeasts in question class as genetically modified? Makes me wonder whether some commercial yeasts are or do they have to be developed using selection

Yes, although they use the same "gene editing" technique as for instance the Omega "thiolised" yeasts which is more precise than traditional transgenics so is likely to be allowed in the UK and EU within the next few years, before traditional transgenics.

 

[Polcho]

Transgenics, are these the yeast that choose their own pronouns

 

[ChrisR73]

I wonder if the yeasts in question class as genetically modified? Makes me wonder whether some commercial yeasts are or do they have to be developed using selection

I think the lines around GMOs are becoming very blurry as technology improves. It’s no longer about splicing genes from different species (or even kingdoms) but about tweaking expression of existing genes. These changes could hypothetically be triggered through old-fashioned radiation treatment and selective breeding but then you also run the risk of triggering less desirable changes as well.
iIts certainly exciting stuff, and if a brewer is removing the yeast then it’s not an ingredient…
We could potentially look to a future when a yeast strain delivers all the flavours from the sugar and a few basic ingredients so we won’t need to add hops.

 

[jof]

You would think that with the the speed of yeast lifecycle, you could easily produce new strains through traditional methods with improved sifting through to find the good ones, without having to recourse to the gene splicing type of genetic engineering.

 

[ChrisR73]

You would think that with the the speed of yeast lifecycle, you could easily produce new strains through traditional methods with improved sifting through to find the good ones, without having to recourse to the gene splicing type of genetic engineering.

As changes are pretty much random it could take a very long time.
Gene editing is by far the quickest way to make specific changes which is why it is becoming so popular.

 

[Rodcx500z]

The only genes i split were the one's i am wearing, sorry

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I think the lines around GMOs are becoming very blurry as technology improves. It’s no longer about splicing genes from different species (or even kingdoms) but about tweaking expression of existing genes.

I was tweaking expression of existing genes [mumble] years ago - let's just say a long time ago. Not too much has changed in that regard from a technical perspective, although in general we have learnt more about how genes are controlled, which will mean that there's more interest in manipulating expression, by whatever technology is available.

iIts certainly exciting stuff, and if a brewer is removing the yeast then it’s not an ingredient…

The rules don't work like that - if the yeast is modified then the beer or any product is considered modified too regardless of whether it's been removed. And in reality filtration isn't perfect - people have reported harvesting yeast from minikegs of Ghost Ship for instance, which should be filtered of all yeast.

We could potentially look to a future when a yeast strain delivers all the flavours from the sugar and a few basic ingredients so we won’t need to add hops.

We're a long way from that at the moment - the thiolising yeasts may reduce the amount of hops needed for a given quantity of thiols, but all they're doing is releasing thiols that are already in the hops, not creating thiols from scratch. And we're already seeing people complain that they can be a bit 1-dimensional compared to real hops.

Just generally those complex metabolic pathways are tough ones to engineer, there's all sorts of crosstalk which means things "leak" out of your pathway and you don't end up with what you intended.

As an aside, the Genetic Technology (Precision Breeding) Bill completed its Commons stages yesterday, which provides a framework for "gene editing" in animals and plants in the UK but not as far as I can tell, yeast and other microbes.

Debate is from 18:56 here :
https://parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/dbbf4cbf-d9c3-45b5-bbbc-19b844791e8b

 

[ChrisR73]

The rules don't work like that - if the yeast is modified then the beer or any product is considered modified too regardless of whether it's been removed. And in reality filtration isn't perfect - people have reported harvesting yeast from minikegs of Ghost Ship for instance, which should be filtered of all yeast.

But the rules can work like that - they do with cheese.
We also have medicines in the UK created by GM technology, as well as animal feed.

We're a long way from that at the moment - the thiolising yeasts may reduce the amount of hops needed for a given quantity of thiols, but all they're doing is releasing thiols that are already in the hops, not creating thiols from scratch. And we're already seeing people complain that they can be a bit 1-dimensional compared to real hops.

Totally agree - but it is an exciting possibility that one day this could happen.

As an aside, the Genetic Technology (Precision Breeding) Bill completed its Commons stages yesterday, which provides a framework for "gene editing" in animals and plants in the UK but not as far as I can tell, yeast and other microbes.

Yes, this is going to be very interesting.
When GM first arose the media backlash was outrageous, total scaremongering and very little fact.
The potential advantages could be huge, I’m reminded of fairly recent research which increased a plants growth rate by around 30% by removing some metabolic inefficiencies - tobacco plants if I remember correctly. If this can be repeated in other plants it could be massive (literally).

 

[Northern_Brewer]

But the rules can work like that - they do with cheese.
We also have medicines in the UK created by GM technology, as well as animal feed.

I don't follow the cheese scene closely - I know about microbial chymosin, but they're surely not using transgenic bugs actually in the cheese-making process? Which would be the analogy here.

Chymosin is a bit different, it's more like the medical uses - you're using a bug as a factory to make a specific protein, which is highly purified and sold as a pure protein for use somewhere else. That protein is theoretically the same as the natural one and shouldn't contain any live bugs or their DNA (in theory). That means that the downstream user is considered to be at no risk of spreading transgenes into the environment and can use it like the natural product without special precautions. In contrast the factory with the bugs in it will have lots of biosafety and high levels of hygiene in the manufacturing process.

Having worked in a variety of biosafe environments, and also been in quite a lot of breweries - there's no comparison. If breweries want to go to the cost/paperwork of full biosafety and then working with modified yeast, then fine - but it would be a lot cheaper to just throw a few kgs more of Nelson into the fermenter.

Animal feed is also a bit different - partly because it's not grown here, but also because the electorate are OK with it - and not straying too far from where the public is at is really important for this kind of issue.

Totally agree - but it is an exciting possibility that one day this could happen.

Yes, this is going to be very interesting.
When GM first arose the media backlash was outrageous, total scaremongering and very little fact.
The potential advantages could be huge, I’m reminded of fairly recent research which increased a plants growth rate by around 30% by removing some metabolic inefficiencies - tobacco plants if I remember correctly. If this can be repeated in other plants it could be massive (literally).

Still - I don't think it's particularly helpful to over hype what's possible within a reasonable timespan. That's kind of how we got to where we are now, with really good products not being grown because of mistakes made by other people in the past. And that's speaking as someone who used to be doing this stuff day-to-day and even had a demo outside our lab once - I don't need to be convinced of the potential.

People tend to forget that when transgenics were first proposed, a lot of what are now considered opponents were really enthusiastic - the organic mob loved the idea of more disease-resistant crops for instance. Whilst it's easy to blame the media you can't ignore how badly Monsanto messed things up. They're a classic example of smart techies who don't understand people and just come across as arrogant, disrespectful and frankly stupid. Anyway, that's a debate for another time and another forum.