Beer engine issues

[ivanb]

Hi all!

I am total newbie on beer engines so I need advice. I connected Pint365 to corny keg, but having some issue with it. It simply doesn't pump beer for some reason. It either doesn't pump at all, and I can move handle very easily with no resistance at all and obviously no pumping any liquid. And then after I move beer upside down and then back, or doing this test:


After that it pulls properly once or twice into the glass, but then again it either stops completely and pulling is very easy with no resistance - or I see it pulls beer in hose towards the pump, but then when I pull back it returns beer like on the video:


Am i doing something wrong or something is wrong with pump?

 

[Rwilts]

Is that a non return valve in the second video? Is it working ?

 

[ivanb]

That is demand valve which is supposed to stop beer from keg from getting to beer engine under pressure.

But just to eliminate possibility that something is wrong with valve - I removed it and connected keg directly with beer engine, and it is the same - beer is just going up and down the hose.

 

[RoomWithABrew]

That looks like a demand valve, it looks like the type with a switch on it to allow cleaning fluid to be pulled through ( the slider on side of it).
Check this isn't in cleaning position.
However you also say same behaviour when this valve isn't in the system.
This might suggest that the valve built into the beer engine isn't working correctly.
Are you supplying low pressure gas into the corny keg?
Try connecting your ball lock to a coke bottle with a kegland screw on ball lock red/ yellow thingy and pulling some water.
Or just put the tube without ball lock into a jug/ bucket/ vessel of water and try again.
The engines are low tech and I'd expect it to work fine straight away from new. Even old ones can be good for years.

 

[ivanb]

@RoomWithABrew - it's not valve with switch, but anyhow it's the same with or without valve.

Low pressure is in keg. Also i tried to pull from bucket with water, but it's the same.

I guess that you are right - valve in beer engine that is suppose to stop beer going back is not working, or something in or around cylinder is not working.

Anyone had same issue?

 

[peebee]

As @RoomWithABrew I'd first suspect the Demand Valve. It should snap shut the instant you stop pumping. Perhaps it won't close if you're drawing a negative pressure (suction) in the keg (not maintaining a pressure in the keg). but the pump wont draw from an open bucket either. I wouldn't not suspect the Demand Valve is faulty too, but that'll have to wait:

Hang-on though, I thought these Pint365's had an integral demand valve? Did that demand Valve come with it?

 

[RoomWithABrew]

I've got home now and looked at my demand valve and realised that what I thought was the switch is just one of the mounting points.
However if it just pulls and pushes beer when no demand valve is present then that is wrong.
The engines work by emptying the cylinder out of the spout when pulling, at the same time beer is drawn up from the keg.
Returning the handle to upright causes a valve at bottom of cylinder to open and the beer moves past the moving cylinder head to fill the cylinder. This valve closes when the handle is pulled again and ejects the beer.
As @peebee says and website agrees " check valve is not needed with the Pint365 beer engine, as there is one already built into its system."


https://www.pint365.com/products/pi...64939&pr_ref_pid=4996152524939&pr_seq=uniform
The valve is on the bottom piece in this picture.
They can get stiff / not work.

Have a look at this video


The 365 might have the valve built into the
https://www.pint365.com/collections/pint365-spares/products/pint365-inlet-and-o-ring

But I'm not sure completely with yours, my 4 beer engines are all different brands and old.

 

[ivanb]

Hi @peebee - no, it is not demand valve's fault. I connected keg to pump directly to eliminate possibility that demand valve is faulty. And it is the same with or without demand valve. When pumping with hand pull - beer just goes a bit up and down the hose with nothing going out of the faucet, just some tiny small amount of beer or mostly none at all.

I bought this demand valve separately and it is suppose to stop beer from getting into pump if beer wants to go that way under pressure. If i understood correctly, beer pump has integrated check valve or mechanism inside the cylinder so when we pull handle back - it shouldn't push beer in direction to keg - which mine is doing. Not sure if it gets into keg, but as on video i posted above - when i pull handle towards me - beer travels in direction to pump, and when i pull back, same amount travels back where it was.

 

[peebee]

... As @peebee says and website agrees " check valve is not needed with the Pint365 beer engine, as there is one already built into its system." ...

Thanks

I thought that was the case ... so, starters: Remove that demand valve (which is suspect broken anyway) and connect input pipe direct to Pint365. Not suggesting this'll fix it, but, get a better idea of what's going amiss.

[EDIT: Oops; cross-post. Hang-on while I read that.]

 

[peebee]

When you pull the handle, beer is drawn into the cylinder (under the piston). At the same time, any beer already in the cylinder is pushed out into the glass. When the handle returns the beer that was drawn in to the bottom of the cylinder moves (via a one-way valve in the piston) to the top of the cylinder (from where it can be pushed into the glass on pulling the handle again).

The valve on the piston might be stuck open? Not "stuck" it appears in the catalogue as a simple "flapper" valve ... so missing? But for that to make sense, the check valve needs to be stuck open too? Humm... more thinking yet and maybe any extra info?

 

[ivanb]

Yes, i am suspecting that something is wrong mechanism in cylinder. Seems to me that when i am puling handle that some smaller amount of beer travels in hoses in direction to pump and fills the space under the piston, but when i am pulling handle back that beer is going out of cylinder down the hose instead of going up above the piston. Like piston going down pushes beer out of cylinder or in other words mechanism that needs to ensure beer goes "up" doesn't work.

Anyone had and fixed that issue?

 

[peebee]

If the ingoing check-valve/demand-valve is stuck open there might be enough "cracking pressure" to prevent the beer transferring to above the piston, so instead, it goes back the way it came. Pity your "other" demand valve doesn't function ... or perhaps that's a good thing because you wouldn't have noticed a problem with the Pint365.

So, conclusion is the Pint365's check-valve/demand-valve is stuck open. Can you return it to be fixed/replaced? Otherwise, if you have to, you can try a working external demand valve to put in series.

 

[peebee]

If you have a one-way (check) valve you can put in the input line, you could test this fix. A demand valve is used because a one-way (check) valve won't hold back beer with any pressure behind it (or if the pump is below the cask/keg).

 

[RoomWithABrew]

Strange thing is that the demand valve is meant to stop the beer coming out of the engine when there is pressure from the supply.
ie you lower pressure on the engine side by pulling on the engine handle and the demand valve opens to let the beer flow.
When this isn't in the system and you attach direct to a keg with pressure in the engine would normally leak beer.
Yours is not behaving like this.
Almost as if that flap valve was on the wrong side of the piston.

 

[ivanb]

Thanks all of you for all your thoughts and suggestions :-) so nice to get them as i am newbie with beer engine and really love british cask ales and as i live in Norway - only way to drink it is to make my own.

Last night i went through thourough test to connect all with all different combinations of different hoses, with or without john guest fittings, with or without demand valve, different ball lock disconnects, all possible combinations. Well, except of turning demand valve opposite way - i didn't think of that, great idea @peebee .

But I am now one step closer to truth. It could be that pump and cylinder is fine, it run water with no problems. I had issue with pumping with water couple of days ago, it didn't pull water and had no resistance when pulling handle. But last night with water from bucket all worked fine.

So possibly problem lies somewhere when connecting to corny keg. I tried with different ball lock disconnects, different hoses, with or without john guest fittings, jubelee clips etc, but all with same result - some amount of beer goes up the hose, but then it returns back down the hose and probably go back in keg.

One thing to suspect is that sediment clogged entry on bottom of the keg. If that is the problem - then still two things are strange:

1.if bottom is clogged - then why tiny bit of beer that don't look very muddy still entered pipe. Maybe sediment is not that "solid" and physics still pull little liquid that is around sediment - who would know.
2. Question is why beer goes down the hose in direction of keg? If i understand correctly - when pulling back handle in upright position no beer should travel in direction of keg. If sediment clogged the way - then there should be hard resistance and should be very hard to pull handle. But it is not hard, just beer travels up and down the hose like on the video in the first post.

Mysteries really...

 

[RoomWithABrew]

How many PSI in the Keg?



Also you really want a larger diameter tube between keg and demand valve and also from demand valve to engine.
I had trouble with my first beer engine using silicone tube to connect from the container with beer in to the demand valve. Problem was the tube collapsed.

My beer engines pull and dispense easily with open systems ie direct from open container and a decent sized tube.
But is harder work with narrow tube and when attached to a keg.

 

[foxy]

I used one of these none return valves from aliexpress.

 

[peebee]

Well, except of turning demand valve opposite way - i didn't think of that, great idea @peebee .

Not me! You might of reached that conclusion from something I said, but I had no idea from your video which pipe was going to keg and which to pump, so I assumed it was connected correctly (the 3/8" central push-fit - JG-like - connects to the keg (beer-in), the 1/2" barb connects with a pipe to the pump - beer-out). I've watched video again and I still can't reach the conclusion that the demand valve is the wrong-way-around. Is it?

Anyway, the demand-valve will let nothing through if it's the wrong way around. And wasn't it determined that "extra" stand-alone demand-valve wasn't required; the "Pint365" pump has one built-in?

 

[ivanb]

@RoomWithABrew - it's low pressure inside 5 to 10 PSI. Thanks for tip about larger diameter tube, will keep that in mind.

@foxy - will take a look at that one you posted, but i think it shouldn't be necessary because pump has in built valve that prevents beer from going back in direction to keg. Is it working properly or not - i am still not 100 percent sure.

@peebee - correct, it 3/8 pipe between keg and demand valve (black ball connector with small JG fitting on keg side, and 1/2 pipe from demand valve (barb connect) into beer engine.

That standalone valve is the one which should prevent beer of going to beer engine if it's under pressure from keg. That one works as it should, beer goes through it in direction to beer engine only if I pull handle. Other valve that should protect beer from going back into keg should not be needed - as pint365 has it built in - and it should work, but i am still not sure 100 percent is that one not working - or something else is problem - like sediment on bottom of the jeg, clogged connection on corny keg or something completely different.

If everything works with hose being drowned in bucket of water, then question is why it doesn't work when it's connected to keg. Here is photo of connection to keg. I tried with going through this grey connector or directly pipe attached with jubilee clip, tried 2 different ball disconnects, but same results.

 

[peebee]

That standalone valve is the one which should prevent beer of going to beer engine if it's under pressure from keg. ...

I was going to say: The Pint365 has a built-in demand valve. But double-checking (because I've not seen such a thing amongst its parts list), I'm now quite sure it hasn't. I don't know where that bit of misinformation crept in. Well-done @ivanb for not being dragged into it! So, you should have that stand-alone demand-valve!

But, until you've got the pump working, leave it off (we were suspicious about it working correctly). It's not necessary while pumping unpressured water.

The built-in one-way valve (check-valve) is required and should work (all hand-pumps have them). It can be worked around if it doesn't, but we haven't proven it doesn't work yet.

There is a second one-way valve in a hand-pump, built-in to the cylinder's piston. It can't be worked around (it moves with the piston!) but we've no reason to suspect it faulty yet. That one-way valve may not look like a check valve! On the Pint365 it is either a rigid ring/cylinder that moves, or a flexible flat ring that ... err ... "flaps". I can't decide from the parts picture.

One thing to suspect is that sediment clogged entry on bottom of the keg. ...

Hand-pumps create a lot of suction (negative pressure). So, it isn't an issue (unless the "sediment" includes a lot of debris from hops or the like).