Be honest...

[AdeDunn]

Right, background, I'm currently transitioning to all grain (BIAB) from kit brewing. So far I am finding AG a MASSIVE PITA! The mess, the work, the disruption.... Kits though of the ones I've done (not counting the AIPA still fermenting) only 2 have produced a beer I genuinely liked, those 2 though I could happily make time and time again they were so nice..

So, my question is, how many of you have been tempted to quit brewing AG to go back to brewing a couple of kits that you really enjoyed the beer from?:lol:

Oh, if you are doing AG with a REAL brewing buddy who helps fully, or using an all in one system, I'll let you off as your answer will probably be not at all. It's those solo brewers brewing on a shoe string I'm wondering about.... :whistle:

Full disclosure, not tasted any of my AG yet. It might be like some women say about pregnancy and child birth (my wife been the exception... DD4 shot out like a cork from a champagne bottle, whilst the midwife was turned around writing in her notes....), once that beer is in my pint glass it may all be suddenly worth it, I hope (slightly paraphrasing there....lol)....

 

[DoctorMick]

Since going AG I’ve never considered going back to kits, the difference in quality is huge imo. I have considered extract to save time but haven’t got round to it yet.

Disclaimer: I use an all in one system.

 

[Gunge]

I haven't made a kit for many a year and will never make one again, unless I'm too infirm / old to deal with AG. The trick is to establish a routine and just take it easy and never to panic. Got a brew on right now - started heating the mash water up while I washed last nights dishes. Once up to temp let it stand whilst weighing out the grains. Doughed in then got the rest of the gear ready. Off to sparge soon, once boiling I'll have time for a spot of brunch, decide what hops to chuck in, prepare everything else I need, rehydrate the yeast and have a bit of a tidy-up. Started at 1130 and I'll be done and dusted by 1530 no sweat.

 

[pms67]

The kit "twang" is the taste of the concentrated wort,I'm sure of it,I never noticed it until I started BIAB but now every kit tastes the same to me,yes, the hops are nice tasting but underneath is the unmistakable taste

 

[pvt_ak]

I’ve done about 6-7 AG now and would never go back . I use a PECO and BIAB method.
Once the routine is established it’s non intrusive and enjoyable.

Just need to be organised and keep on top of mess.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Ciaran12s]

I agree with @pms67 on that one. I've only just sampled my first AG and it ain't got that twang. The second was sampled at bottling and it didn't have it either.

My setup is a PITA in that I have a 2 year old who will not sit inside while I'm outside. So I just brew once he's in bed to save a lot of arsing about. I mash at half 6 or 7 and while that's in he's sorted and put to bed. Last night In The Chinese arrived at 6.40, mash in at 1900 and done and dusted, yeast pitched and feet up by 10.30. Everything cleaned down apart from the boiler which I done this morning while playing outside with the wee man. That was #3. #1 started at 18.30 and I think it was after 1 by the time I was finished! Well sozzled as well Haha!

So in short I think the process gets easier each time. There's less panicking etc. It's a matter of getting in to a rhythm and smoothing out your prpcess.

Despite that kit twang, with my work schedule I plan to do 2AG and 1 kit in a 6 week schedule to get the stock up.

 

[Sandimas]

I agree to some extent with the OP, I've done 15 BIAB AGs and sometimes find it a PITA, especially when the resultant beer is a bit average or gets infected and you have to bin it. My biggest enemy is free time, there's always something that needs doing or someone needs taking somewhere, so trying to find a clear 5 hour window can be impossible at times.

My favourite is the half-way house of extract using DME, you don't seem to get the twang with that and do a full hop boil so you get some decent beer. I'm just about to experiment with a couple of half-extract half-AG brews: the biggest PITA is heating up and cooling down time, so I reckon by halving the size of the AG bit and then topping up the brew with cold water and DME (like you do with extract brewing) you should save quite a bit of time.

Having said that, I just did a BIAB brew for the first time in 6 months and really enjoyed it.

 

[Gunge]

Once the routine is established it’s non intrusive and enjoyable.

Just need to be organised and keep on top of mess.

Nicely put. Be methodical and relaxed, deal with the unexpected calmly. Deal with cleaning tasks as they arise instead of leaving them all til the end. Half the time is spent waiting during the mash / boil. Gets to be as easy as making a cup of tea... probably why I never make the same brew twice ( except chez Gunge stout ) - to keep it interesting. And all things being equal, no kit will ever match a well-made AG.

 

[AdeDunn]

Not had any panic, so that's one thing. Been following a set routine:-

Weighed my grain and hops, putting hops and additions into pots with a little label for when they go in.

Put water on to warm for mash.
Mash
Boil

By mess, I basically mean the equipment that I can't do anything about until the end (pan, siphon, mash paddle, tubs I put the hops in, spare bucket). I'm also having the problem with very little work surface (my wife has filled most of the work tops with "stuff", which means my hops etc are taking up space used for food prep. My pan occupies almost the entire hob, and a couple of buckets and the little floor space I have is full...

Could do with a brew shed, but knowing my wife she'd fill that too....

So yeah, routine isn't the problem, space is. I can sort some of that by using a PECO boiler rather than trying to work on the stove. Now need to find a way so that when I clear space the other end of the kitchen my wife doesn't do her usual trick of finding stuff to fill it with.... Currently trying to store my kit around a bunch of wine bottles and empty water bottles she obtained for mead we're not actually making....:whistle: The water bottles are headed for the recycling at some point methinks.

Only twang I've had in any kits has been an odd background taste of treacle/liquorice, seems to only happen if I use overly hot water to mix the wort, or ferment in warm weather. The 2 that went well I mixed at 78 degrees and fermented at ambient 19-20 (FV temp maxed at 23 degrees C) degrees C.

I'll keep going though, got too much malt to give up. :lol: I need to find a better, more efficient, way to mash though as better efficiency will allow for a shorter mash time and maybe less grain. Need a better boiler too, as a better boil will allow me to drop to a 60 minute boil. Also need to rejig my schedule. I originally planned to do my weighing whilst warming the mash water, but my darling wife changed my scheduling... A bad habit of hers to be honest. My first BIAB took longer too as on the day we'd arranged to brew she decided to go out, leaving me with hops and grain all weighed, but nobody to help me to dough in (got a tremor, and a weak left wrist, making doing it alone VERY difficult).

Just needed to have a bit of a vent to be honest.

 

[foxbat]

Like the others said it becomes routine after a while. Once you've done a few and you know what's coming along the timeline you learn to prepare stuff in advance and clean up as much as you can as you go. I've just done a BIAB session this morning and apart from the hour spent cleaning up at the end it was an enjoyable and straightforward morning starting at about 6:45am and all washed and tidied up by 1:15pm with every predicted number hit bang on.

I'll never do another kit while I'm physically able to do AG. The quality difference is huge.

 

[MickDundee]

I do BIAB too, and only did 2 kits, one a massive success and one rather mediocre. My first AG was a complete disaster (due to me being clueless) but the beer that came out was so much better than the mediocre kit, even with its flaws (far too much bitterness, fermented too hot etc).

Once you go bag you never go back!

 

[Linalmeemow]

Going back to kits has never crossed my mind. The worst AG I've done has been better than the best kit.

 

[AdeDunn]

Definitely seeing a "childbirth" analogy pattern here, which is really helpful as gives me hope, thanks. :thumb:

I reckon I just need to stop trying to shoestring it. My 30 litre SS pan, wrapped in reflective insulation, on the gas hob is NOT cutting it as a boiler and mash tun. The fine filter bag I originally bought to strain fruit when making melomel is NOT cutting it as a BIAB bag (bet it'd make a good hop sock though....:lol:). At the very least I need to get a PECO boiler and a BIAB bag to fit.

I owe my wife an apology too (luckily she will never know) as it wasn't her that altered my scheduling, it was the check-list I downloaded from the brewersfriend site... I used it to make my own (didn't like that one) and left the order intact... I'll redo the version I made to something more efficient.

Process, been using the timings in recipes, using the timer in Beersmith 2 app to organise. Not had any cleaning up to do until the end (quite a few of the bits I use go in the dishwasher anyway). It's literally the space it takes up that's been the problem. This should improve using an electric boiler, and by doing my weighing on a different schedule (actually thinking something like: water on to heat for mash - weigh grain - mash - weigh hops and adjuncts whilst mashing -boil), that way it's not all sat taking up space whilst waiting.

A question for fellow BIABers. When you are mashing, do you stir the grain at any point? I've been giving it a gentle stir at 30 minute intervals, is this a mistake? I'm definitely doing something wrong, as even without sparging I surely should be getting higher efficiency? Been mashing at 64-66 degrees Celsius for 90 minutes.

 

[Dexter101]

Ive never done any kits and at the moment i only do 5l batches but never found it stressful or had anything happen... put water on to boil, stelise equipment. Keep everything clean as i go along. Only think i need to keep an eye on is the inital part of the boil! 4 beers so far, one bottled and tastes great 👍

 

[chthon]

Interesting thread. The opinion here in the Benelux is that using kits is really a waste of time, so the existing fora try hard to convince starters to immediately go all-grain. The impression I got from UK and US fora was that due to the greater choice in beer kits, there was more quality available. I also see more use of more generic LME (also in brewing books) in the UK and US brewing communities, while you can be sure that on the fora here you won't even find recipes using LME. The most that known names in the UK and US brewing communities say about LME, is that is different, not necessarily worse.
However, this thread shows that there are people who really are dissatisfied with kits and LME.
Disclaimer: my first brew was a small LME kit, my second brew was pure DME, and only my third brew was AG.

However, when I see that the brewing shops always have such kits and LME in stock, it seems that there are actively much more people brewing than that take part in homebrewing fora.

 

[Gunge]

I brew in the kitchen, and the missus knows full-well to keep out and give me free reign until I say so. She knows the consequences... I stop making her wine lol. I don't do BIAB but the mash gets a good ol' stir midpoint. With every brew you'll think I could have done this or that better or could have used a certain device which doesn't exist so you make your own which does the job. My kit is full of unlikely- looking bits and bobs for every occasion. All part of the fun if you ask me!

 

[Saisonator]

Biggest pain for me, next to cleaning is lugging my gear down and up the stairs.
When we move house next year I have informed my wife that I will be building a brew shed, probably a large log cabin. I may let her have some of it as a cake making studio or whatever they call them.
Now being able to have everything at arms reach and set up permanently will be an absolute dream.

As for kit brewing, I've never drank one I liked, it's AG or nothing for me.

 

[Cwrw666]

I've been brewing kits since I was a teenager and I'm in my sixties now, but about 3 years ago I started doing BIAB as I have to boil all my water anyway as we don't have treated water here.
I was always mostly happy with even 1 can kits but AG beer is worlds apart. Since then I have slipped in the odd kit when I was out of grains and running out of beer quick. Always been a big disappointment. I've even done an extract kit using tinned malt extract and it just tasted like a kit, so now I'll never do anything other than BIAB again.
Takes me 5 hours to do a brew, but I tend to do it when the mrs. is out at work so no problem and she never gets to see the mess when the boiler boils over all over the washing machine...

 

[Saisonator]

I brew in the kitchen, and the missus knows full-well to keep out and give me free reign until I say so. She knows the consequences... I stop making her wine lol. I don't do BIAB but the mash gets a good ol' stir midpoint. With every brew you'll think I could have done this or that better or could have used a certain device which doesn't exist so you make your own which does the job. My kit is full of unlikely- looking bits and bobs for every occasion. All part of the fun if you ask me!

I don't think I'll ever make a beer and think 'well that's it, beer making perfected' :)

 

[chthon]

A question for fellow BIABers. When you are mashing, do you stir the grain at any point? I've been giving it a gentle stir at 30 minute intervals, is this a mistake? I'm definitely doing something wrong, as even without sparging I surely should be getting higher efficiency? Been mashing at 64-66 degrees Celsius for 90 minutes.

Well, what is your efficiency? BIAB and batch sparging do decrease your efficiency.
I use a bucket in bucket system, and I fly sparge. I had a couple of sessions where I did more batch sparge, and my efficiency dropped. So now I am back into fly sparging.
And I do stir every twenty minutes. When I did not stir, my efficiency dropped too.
My last calculated efficiency is 82.5%. But I set it for recipe formulation always to 80%. That is efficiency into boil kettle. My last two brewhouse efficiencies came out above 83%.