Batch sparge effiency

[theboytony]

Just done a brew today which is only my third AG but I have a question about the batch sparge efficiency, the first two I did came out with a mash efficiency of 64% (using beersmith 2) on a 60 minute mash,. Now I have just done one today and beersmith works out that my mash efficiency is 81% and really all i have done different is leave the mash for 90mins because I forgot to turn the HLT back on for the sparge. I'm sure that my grain measurements can't be that far out (they were maybe a little bit over but not by much <100g total grain of 4kg) so would the extra half an hour make that much difference or are my scales buggered :hmm:

 

[artiums_enteri]

It is unlikely you will jump that high after the initial 60 minutes. Depending on the mash temps the majority of the conversion is finished in 35-45 minutes. The enzymes work faster at higher temps, so if you are mashing in the high 150F range then conversion can be completed quicker than that.

As far as batch sparging, there is a very big difference in efficiency between batch and fly sparging. Most craft breweries here in the states have discontinued the use of batch sparging because of the lower efficiency. The exception being those who will use the second runnings for Scottish 60 shillings and small stouts.

When batch sparging it's hard to get the amount of sugars rinsed from the grain before you hit you kettle volume. The pro side of it of course is that it will cut your brew day by about 120 minutes. Because of the increased flow rate during the lautering you may experience channeling in the grain bed resulting in less efficiency. If your efficiency bounces dramatically between brews I'd check your water to grain ratio, your flow rate, and the possible channeling in your lautertun.

 

[oldstout]

I love it :lol: :lol: :lol:


Not got the first idea what you boys are on about :shock:

But it looks class when people talk technical - it's like when you were in the first year seniors.......

......and walked into the Maths class that the previous 6th formers had been in......


.................. and the teacher hadn't wiped the mega equation from that lesson off the board :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

:thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: :thumb:


Soss, but that's Woodfords Wherry, Black Pearl, Coopers Irish Stout, and half a bottle of beefed up Youngs Chard taking hold before a well earned weekend off.........


.....................starting...........



NOW.........


:drunk: :drunk: :drink: :drink: :drink:

:

 

[theboytony]

Thanks arti for the reply, not sure why the jump but not gonna complain got my boil off calc correct so thats a bonus. Brewing again in a week so will see what happens then, gonna stick with the batch sparge for ease of use at the mo I think. How did you find the black pearl oldstout wasn't to impressed with it myself

 

[oldstout]

[quote="theboytony" How did you find the black pearl oldstout wasn't to impressed with it myself[/quote]

Really like it tony :thumb: conditioned nicely in the bottle in the shed, great tight clingy head, very liquorice/toffee overtones, did the Coopers Irish after it and was much less impressed with that
Gona try the Better Brew Stout next up

Keep up the science :clap: :clap: :clap: :thumb: :thumb:

 

[evanvine]

The pro side of it of course is that it will cut your brew day by about 120 minutes.

Can you explain that please AE, cos my fly sparge takrs 40mins. :wha:
Or as usuall, have I missed the point.

 

[BrewSage1985]

Just done a brew today which is only my third AG but I have a question about the batch sparge efficiency, the first two I did came out with a mash efficiency of 64% (using beersmith 2) on a 60 minute mash,. Now I have just done one today and beersmith works out that my mash efficiency is 81% and really all i have done different is leave the mash for 90mins because I forgot to turn the HLT back on for the sparge. I'm sure that my grain measurements can't be that far out (they were maybe a little bit over but not by much <100g total grain of 4kg) so would the extra half an hour make that much difference or are my scales buggered :hmm:

Since I also use Beersmith 2 theres only one explanation. The sparge temps are a bit low and the software will tell you to sparge with 75 degrees instead of 85 - 90 degrees. Once the grain bed has been drained the temperature lowers quite a bit so if you add say 75 degrees (like Beersmith tells you to) you would probably only reach around 67 degrees which is a bit low for sparging. I use the Infusion Tool to work out my sparge water temp properly. :thumb:

You probably got good efficiency this time around because you heated your sparge water to the proper temperature before adding to the mash. In your first two AG brews you may of had a lower sparge temp meaning it wasn't hot enough to rinse all the sugars from the grains.

I adjusted my temperatures for batch sparges and I tend to hit 80% - 85% regularly unless I get a poor grain crush with some of my grains :x. I also split my sparge water into 2 seperate sparges and it seems to work well. :thumb:

 

[artiums_enteri]

I think brewsage has a good point. Your water needs to be hot enough to effectively rinse those sugars or you are just running warm water through oatmeal not accomplishing much.

As far as the 90-120 minute sparge, that just seems to be what gives me the best and most consistent results on my system. I sparge at 168F until I hit my kettle volume of 7.5 gallons. To ensure I pickup all the sugars I want from the grains I found that for me and this system slow and steady wins the race. If I sparge too quickly I notice I'm lautering clear water into the kettle. That is a dead giveaway for me that my grain bed has channeled, and I'm no longer picking up sweet wort.

I keep 1 gallon of sparge water above my grain bed monitored with a float switch. The pumps are full throttle, but I've figured out that it's running off at 1 gallon per 5 minutes.

I know brewers who are successful in hitting their target pre-boil gravity and volume in 45 minutes, some who like me take an hour or two, and some who never hit their pre-boil gravity no matter what they do. The new brewers out here need to figure out what best works for you on your system and gives the most consistent results. Just because a 90 minute sparge works well for me it might just be wasted time for you. Because the 45 minute sparge works well for some, others may find they are missing their target by 10 or 15 points. Just experiment. I always tell new all grain brewers to just take good notes and don't worry too much about if you are doing something right or wrong for the first 10-30 brews. It will normally take 15-20 before you really know your system and figure out methods that work best for you.

 

[theboytony]

Since I also use Beersmith 2 theres only one explanation. The sparge temps are a bit low and the software will tell you to sparge with 75 degrees instead of 85 - 90 degrees. Once the grain bed has been drained the temperature lowers quite a bit so if you add say 75 degrees (like Beersmith tells you to) you would probably only reach around 67 degrees which is a bit low for sparging. I use the Infusion Tool to work out my sparge water temp properly.

You probably got good efficiency this time around because you heated your sparge water to the proper temperature before adding to the mash. In your first two AG brews you may of had a lower sparge temp meaning it wasn't hot enough to rinse all the sugars from the grains.

Ahhh think I understand, so when beersmith says batch sparge with two steps of 75.6 C water it really means get the temp of the grain bed upto 75.6?

Also I've been thinking about it and when I was recirculating the first runnings out of the mash tun instead of using a jug and recirculating a few litres I used my new solar pump and left it going for about five minutes, would that help

 

[BrewSage1985]

Ahhh think I understand, so when beersmith says batch sparge with two steps of 75.6 C water it really means get the temp of the grain bed upto 75.6?

Also I've been thinking about it and when I was recirculating the first runnings out of the mash tun instead of using a jug and recirculating a few litres I used my new solar pump and left it going for about five minutes, would that help

Aye, thats exactly right. When your adding the sparge water monitor the temp closely so you don't go over 80 C as you don't want to extract tannins from the grains. The Infusion Tool helps quite a bit at this point. :thumb:

As the the pump, it may help but I've never use one so can't confirm that. Your probably getting clearer wort using the pump though. I usually recirculate about 4 litres whilst the tun is draining just to catch stray grains and clear the wort.

 

[TheMumbler]

Some of what artiums_enteri is saying seems off to me. Not picking a fight just trying to get my facts straight.

It is unlikely you will jump that high after the initial 60 minutes. Depending on the mash temps the majority of the conversion is finished in 35-45 minutes. The enzymes work faster at higher temps, so if you are mashing in the high 150F range then conversion can be completed quicker than that.

Brewers often mash at 66*C because it is the point where the two enzymes we want to work can both do OK. You will impair enzymes and then denature them by increasing temperature too much. I think it should be more efficient to step the mash temp so that each enzyme has time to work at its optimum temp, but I would imagine that it is more trouble than it is worth for homebrewers with access to grain with decent diastatic power and would presumably result in very dry beer.

I am not convinced that you have will have seen most conversion at 35-40 mins. You might see no starch but that isn't the same thing. I think most commercial brewers mash longer than this so it suggests that more time is needed. Admittedly I could be totally wrong about that though.

As far as batch sparging, there is a very big difference in efficiency between batch and fly sparging. Most craft breweries here in the states have discontinued the use of batch sparging because of the lower efficiency. The exception being those who will use the second runnings for Scottish 60 shillings and small stouts.

Batch sparging is less efficient but not really enough to worry at the scales typically used by a homebrewer. A 10% loss of efficency isn't that significant for my volumes. If I spend £10 on grain per brew 20l brew then it is costing me £1 for 20l or about 3p per pint. Big deal for a commercial brewery, not really relevant to me, YMMV. It could, of course, be fun to try and get things as efficient just for the sake of it but personally I am not really that bothered.

Is extraction from fly sparging constant? Otherwise you ought to be able to make a strong and a weak beer by splitting early and late runnings as far as I can see, although the results might not be identical to doing batches (the more traditional method).

Because of the increased flow rate during the lautering you may experience channeling in the grain bed resulting in less efficiency.

I thought that channeling was less of an issue for batch sparging as you give it all a good mix for each batch. Am I wrong about that?

I am with EV in thinking that 120 mins is more than the time saving that you would see vs fly sparging. I batch sparge and tend to have longer brewdays than lancssteve who fly sparges, there are plenty of other factors and I'm not generally rushing but I think a saving of 2 hours should make me faster than him...

 

[artiums_enteri]

I never entered this hobby to save time or money. Usually a typical brew day for me is 7-9 hours. We brew twice a week, and I have to ensure that each beer turns out exactly like the last. Now granted the system is 100% automated, so 7-9 hours is not really spent in the brewery waiting for water to boil.

According to Jamil Zainachef and Gordon Strong the majority of the enzyme conversion will complete in 30-45 minutes. Do an iodine test if you don't believe me.

The higher mash temps make the enzymes work faster, but it does create a less dry beer. Laganitus mashes at 165F for 60 minutes for their IPA, but Sierra Nevada mashes at 151F for their Torpedo. Laganitus produces a richer beer with more mouthfeel, and more residual sugars. I expect all of my beers to attenuate down to 1.010 or below leaving very little sweetness.

Channeling can occur with any method of sparging, and should be avoided at all costs. Again jamil, Gordon strong, and Dr. Scott all talk about this in detail. As soon as you start running off too quickly, depending on the collection design in the lautertun, the sparge water will take the path of least resistance and create channels in the grain bed. Even after a good stir before a batch sparge the brewer is supposed to allow the mash to settle for 15 minutes before running off. We want to be a little cautious of hot side aeration while playing around in the mashtun.

As far as 10% difference in efficiency goes that is devastating to me. 10% difference could easily be the difference between a 32 point beer and a 42 point beer. Consultancy is key to me especially because a lot of competitions will be judged throughout the course of three months. That means if my beer makes past the first round into the second round I will have to brew that exact same beer to be judged in a month. I can't afford jumps in efficiency or nonsense like that to cost me placing in a completion. More importantly if I produce inconsistent results with beer, the pubs which hold my contracts will quickly replace my taps with one of many waiting to take its place.

 

[TheMumbler]

thanks for your reply

I never entered this hobby to save time or money. Usually a typical brew day for me is 7-9 hours. We brew twice a week, and I have to ensure that each beer turns out exactly like the last. Now granted the system is 100% automated, so 7-9 hours is not really spent in the brewery waiting for water to boil.

I take it from this and the comment about pubs and taps below that you are brewing commercially. So regardless of technical questions your brewing-fu must outclass mine by a fair bit :) So what is your favourite beer of the ones that you brew?

According to Jamil Zainachef and Gordon Strong the majority of the enzyme conversion will complete in 30-45 minutes. Do an iodine test if you don't believe me.

Doesn't idodine test for starch conversion? I wasn't saying all of the *starch* wouldn't be converted by then. I had thought that mash times were generally longer to get more conversion to sugars like maltose which brewing yeast can deal with. I can't see why pretty much all homebrewing books and the commercial brweries that I have seen mash for longer than 45 mins (usually 75 mins or more) if all the work is done by then... Do you mash for 45 mins and if not why not?

The higher mash temps make the enzymes work faster, but it does create a less dry beer.

As I said, yes but only within very constrained bounds. One enzyme is happier lower and the other higher I forget the exact ranges but they are fairly tight. Once you start getting to 68*C then one of them is starting to get denatured and so has less effect on the mash. I'm sure it is changing which enzyme is working optimally that is the important thing here. Probably I am just worrying about phrasing but increasing temperature certainly doesn't just make enzymes work faster with no other effects.

Channeling can occur with any method of sparging, and should be avoided at all costs. Again jamil, Gordon strong, and Dr. Scott all talk about this in detail. As soon as you start running off too quickly, depending on the collection design in the lautertun, the sparge water will take the path of least resistance and create channels in the grain bed. Even after a good stir before a batch sparge the brewer is supposed to allow the mash to settle for 15 minutes before running off.

Clearly it matters for fly sparging where you are relying on the water rinsing the sugar from the grains as it passes through. I thought the point of letting it settle in batch sparging was to establish the grain bed as a filter. I am struggling to see why channeling should matter for efficiency in batch sparging when you give it all a good stir shouldn't you basically be creating a solution that is roughly equal in strength all the way through?

We want to be a little cautious of hot side aeration while playing around in the mashtun.

I don't think stirring the mash tun is a significant risk for a homebrewer at my scale but from what you say you must be working with larger quantities, a greater need for consistency and perhaps longer term storage than I am.

As far as 10% difference in efficiency goes that is devastating to me. 10% difference could easily be the difference between a 32 point beer and a 42 point beer. Consultancy is key to me especially because a lot of competitions will be judged throughout the course of three months. That means if my beer makes past the first round into the second round I will have to brew that exact same beer to be judged in a month. I can't afford jumps in efficiency or nonsense like that to cost me placing in a completion. More importantly if I produce inconsistent results with beer, the pubs which hold my contracts will quickly replace my taps with one of many waiting to take its place.

Sorry I didn't mean to imply a fluctuation of +/- 10% just a general 10% reduction in efficiency. A variation of that size from brew to brew would be a real pain. By the by, wouldn't dropping 10 points from a 42 point beer be rather more than a 10% drop in efficiency? More like 20%? Not that it is especially important for what we were talking about.

I only enter competitions rarely for fun and a bit of feedback, but then I'm not looking to generate any income as a brewer. Horses for courses I suppose.

thanks again for taking the time to reply,

cheers