Astringency/Graininess when all grain brewing

[The Baron]

Hi
this will be rather long
I have been brewing kits for years and never had a problem with off flavours infections etc but stared all grain BIAB last year and every brew has had what i describe as a graininess to the beer which maybe astringency but not sure.
I have scrutinised my brewing I do a 28l full mash then just a simple 4-6 litre sparge over the bag all at the correct temps (mash 67c for 60 mins and sparge water at 75c). I have used different yeast and different styles of beer but all have this taste/flavour which is stronger in lighter beers such as golden ales than bitters etc.
I have looked at everything and came to the conclusion it is a water problem even though other reasonably local brewers have not had this problem.
So today i thought lets change the supplier of grain and bought a all grain blonde kit. I have brewed this today and used 21 l of tap water with 7l of RO water to bring down the alkalinity incase this is the problem added star 5.2 ph buffer mashed as normal at 67c did not sparge at all so that sparge water is eradicated as a problem then topped up the boil with 2& a half ltrs of RO water for the boil. Boiled for 60mins and then cooled with wort chiller. I then needed to add another 2 ltrs of RO to get to my 23 ltrs.
the OG was 1.044 so 1 point way but i tasted the wort and still tasted astringent to me and smelled grainy only time will tell but I am possibly getting paranoid?
any thoughts chaps just hope I am paranoid at it turns out OK

 

[Slid]

OK, so you think the problem may be water related, some questions:

Where do you live?
What sort of water do you think you have?
What is RO?

What sort of resipe are you doing - as in - is there a chance you are getting tannins out of your grain by sparging too warm or too long?

 

[Covrich]

You could try bottled water see if that makes a difference

Never tried it myself but that star 5.2 ph I have heard a lot of negative reviews about.. I was going to try it but heard some bad reviews about making brews taste funny and salty?? Some feel it does more harm than good so I stayed away..
Do you use that on every brew?

 

[The Baron]

Hi
live in Castleford west Yorks
my water is moderately hard Ph upto 7.3
RO is reverse osmosis water
I have mainly been using HBC all grain kits which I believe are pretty reliable of various types bitters, blondes Hefe
Re sparging all done in 10 minutes just pour water over grain bag gently and allow to drain
I have not used star PH 5.2 on any off the previous brews that is why I have tried it on the latest one to see if it helps
Thanks

 

[serum]

I had astringency but eliminated it with water treatment. I fly sparged though and I'm not sure the type of sparge you do will really cause the issues I had but it still potentially sounds like a water issue.

If your darker beers taste better this would be because the darker grains are more acidic and perform part of the job of water treatment. They'll also add a bit more sweetness.

RO water has a lower pH but then it doesn't have any minerals that enhance flavour either. Get the Brunwater spread sheet and read up on how to use it and that ought to help.

 

[Pawlo7671]

28L of mash water seems quite a high amount, what is your grain bill ?

 

[MickDundee]

28L of mash water seems quite a high amount, what is your grain bill ?

Looks like he's doing BIAB with a small sparge so, depending on his boil off rate, 28L is probably about right.

 

[geetee]

Alkalinity can be destructive to your beers below some extracts from my Brewlab course on Liquor treatment
Alkalinity is bad for brewing because it:

• Reduces acidity
• Extracts tannins and oxalates from the mash
• Destroys enzymes
• Stops yeast flocculating
• Lowers mash yield
• Decreases free amino acids
• Extracts more colour and flavours from malt
• Increases hop utilisation, can affect bitterness

Could be that this is your problem and yes as stated above darker roasted malts are more acidic and will decrease the alkalinity and therefore the tannins.
Are you sure it is astringent, like a dry bitterness such as a very strong tea that's been made for a while?

 

[The Baron]

Thanks for all the input guys
If this addition of RO water does not cure the problem (it should bring down the alkalinity and dilute any minerals but would still have a fair bit of minerals in there) also I have not done a sparge on this new brew so that is one less thing less and 5.2 buffer added. Regards the actual taste I do not know if it is astringency just making a educated guess need someone with a little more knowledge to taste it. If this does not work I will try bottled water on its own just need which types to use i know of ashbeck but no tesco nearby so other waters from other supermakets -any suggestions.
Will post when this new brew has fermented re the taste
pete

 

[braziliain]

I have brewed with Eden Falls water from Asda with good results. That was a single malt single hop pale so no dark grains to mask off flavours.

What is 'astringency'? Looking around Google results it seems to suggest a tartness that drys the sides of the mouth, like sucking on a teabag??

 

[The Baron]

Has anybody used water from Aldi as that is my nearest supermarket?
I keep reading the description of astringency and think it may be part like that but to me it tastes more of a graininess/nuttiness (like the taste of grain maybe like grain seeds that have been baked on bread) I know a weird description

 

[serum]

Has anybody used water from Aldi as that is my nearest supermarket?
I keep reading the description of astringency and think it may be part like that but to me it tastes more of a graininess/nuttiness (like the taste of grain maybe like grain seeds that have been baked on bread) I know a weird description

Astringency is very dry and husky.

A nutty flavour could be just malt flavour. Try a different base malt maybe?

 

[geetee]

I have brewed with Eden Falls water from Asda with good results. That was a single malt single hop pale so no dark grains to mask off flavours.

What is 'astringency'? Looking around Google results it seems to suggest a tartness that drys the sides of the mouth, like sucking on a teabag??

That's a good description it's an enduring bitterness not just a quick sharp taste. Try brewing some tea leaves, let it stand and stew for an hour of so and then taste, it dries your mouth out