21st August 2009 - Durden Park Simmonds Bitter

[jamesb]

automatic underback

Great pics, thanks. What's an automatic underback? Does it help automatically fly sparge?

Means that you don't have to balance the flow into the copper against the inflow from the sparge water like we have to. There will be a level switch on there that pumps a bit in when the wort hits that level and then stop until it's filled up again.

 

[Vossy1]

Great pics A, quite a brew day :

 

[jonewer]

I'm stunned!

Whats a BBL though?

 

[Wez]

Brewers Barrel - 36 Gallons (~166 L)

 

[ano]

What's an automatic underback? Does it help automatically fly sparge?

Means that you don't have to balance the flow into the copper against the inflow from the sparge water like we have to. There will be a level switch on there that pumps a bit in when the wort hits that level and then stop until it's filled up again.

That's what I thought it might be. I was also trying to work out how to make one for myself but came up against a few problems, namely how to account for the initial (20 minutes or so with you?) falling grain level, or is that bit still manual?

 

[jamesb]

What's an automatic underback? Does it help automatically fly sparge?

Means that you don't have to balance the flow into the copper against the inflow from the sparge water like we have to. There will be a level switch on there that pumps a bit in when the wort hits that level and then stop until it's filled up again.

That's what I thought it might be. I was also trying to work out how to make one for myself but came up against a few problems, namely how to account for the initial (20 minutes or so with you?) falling grain level, or is that bit still manual?

It would be no fun if everything was all automatic. I haven't worked out how to account for that though, also it's not so much of a problem accounting for the sparge water in if you don't have to worry about the outflow.

As it happens, I'm fitting an automatic underback into my new home brewery. I'm just too lazy

 

[ano]

I'll stop myself from an enormous pyramid quote...

Where'd you get the level switch from... I think I'm missing something because the way I understand it is that you need to measure the rate of change of level, not the level and I couldn't find a switch to do that. Or is it just an on/off kind of thing. Also do you narrow the neck so you don't have to have too much volume in the underback? And how do you control the valves with a switch anyway, are servo'd ballvalves readily available?

 

[jamesb]

I'll stop myself from an enormous pyramid quote...

Where'd you get the level switch from... I think I'm missing something because the way I understand it is that you need to measure the rate of change of level, not the level and I couldn't find a switch to do that. Or is it just an on/off kind of thing. Also do you narrow the neck so you don't have to have too much volume in the underback? And how do you control the valves with a switch anyway, are servo'd ballvalves readily available?

What I'm thinking of is (having not seen the innerds of an automatic underback) is having two level switches, one at the bottom of the underback and one further up.

You let the underback fill up until both level switches are on, signifying that the wort level is near the top. The top level switch when it makes contact turns the pump on, which turns off when the lower level switch deactivates, therefore always ensuring that there's some wort in the underback. I haven't worked out the logic yet, i.e. whether to have them NC or NO, but I'm trying to avoid using anything more than a couple of logic gates to work it.

Why do you think you need to monitor the rate of change of level?

As it happens, it's easier for me to control my pumps as they're Flojets. I can get a valve to turn the gas on to to it from a logic signal quite easily (about 13 quid). Wouldn't fancy the extra stuff to reliably control an electric pump (startup current, amount of relay movements, etc).

EDIT: I think I see what you mean about the rate of change of level now. While you need to monitor a bit at the start of the sparge to ensure that the run off is balanced to the sparge water in, after a few minutes you can leave it be. With our big setup, you need to ensure that the pump into the copper is balanced to the flow from the mash tun and the sparge water in. With an automatic underback you don't need to monitor the flow into the copper as there's no chance of the underback either overflowing or pumping dry.

 

[ano]

I get it now. Cheers. How big are you making it and what's your brewlength (going to be)? I'm just thinking either the pump will be on and off all the time or the underback will be so big that it may as well be your kettle.

Gravity feed ftw.

 

[jamesb]

I'll just be able to squeeze 60l out of it if I'm careful. Normal brewlength will be 45l

Gravity feed not ftw if you can't lift it!

 

[ano]

I demand pictures when you're done :grin:

And there's always the option of a taller house.

 

[jamesb]

Heh. You can come and have a look when I'm done if you want.

Are you coming to the Gred beer festival this weekend?

 

[Aleman]

The Under back, has two latching float switches fitted (its about 70L if you are interested :) ). As it fills the bottom switch closes and enables the top switch when this closes it switches the pump on . . . once the level drops too low the bottom float switch opens and the pump switches off . . . Its a bit like wiring a pair of two way light switches. . . . I could watch that under back all day, I have to manually juggle flow rates and ball valve positions with mine and I always get it wrong :evil:

As far as the sparge liquor and mash level is concerned that is not really a problem, and is managed manually . . . after all taking 70L out of a 20hL mash tun is hardly going to affect it all that much . . . . In fact we ran off a little over 2.5BBL (>400L) from the mash tun without turning on the sparge liquor. . . . . Big systems are just so much more forgiving . . . . . and fun

 

[jamesb]

The Under back, has two latching float switches fitted

:ugeek:

Latching? That would be a bad idea.

 

[Aleman]

No the float doesn't latch, but the switch does . . . then when the lower float drops the switch opens . . . and the pump turns off (In fact it may only be the top switch that is latching :hmm: . . . . Phil wouldn't let me take it apart for some reason :twisted: )

 

[jamesb]

No the float doesn't latch, but the switch does . . . then when the lower float drops the switch opens . . . and the pump turns off (In fact it may only be the top switch that is latching :hmm: . . . . Phil wouldn't let me take it apart for some reason :twisted: )

You'd have to find someway of resetting the latch. I can think of easier logic to make it work.

 

[ano]

Heh. You can come and have a look when I'm done if you want.

Are you coming to the Gred beer festival this weekend?

Will do. Not sure about the Gred though, might take a sunday paper and have a few halves. It's alright for those who live within stumbling distance!

Big systems are just so much more forgiving . . . . . and fun

Sounds like it. How big does a system get before you don't have to empty the mash tun with a shovel though I note your beers brewed has increased a little too heh.

 

[jamesb]

Heh. You can come and have a look when I'm done if you want.
Are you coming to the Gred beer festival this weekend?

Will do. Not sure about the Gred though, might take a sunday paper and have a few halves. It's alright for those who live within stumbling distance!

Lazy! It's only a short distance round the back from you.

 

[ano]

It's a good 2 miles!

 

[Aleman]

A few more pictures courtesy of other people at the event.

Andrew started the day as he intended to go on with a Brewers Breakfast . . .In the meantime that is yours truly in the copper

Phil had done 6BBL of mild on the Monday . . . and the apprentice had been told to leave things for us to clean up . . . Phil wouldn't like to deny us All the pleasures of brewing

As we got closer to the end of the mash I thought it was the better part of valour to climb out of the mash tun . . . . Apparently its not possible to do it the way I did . . . unfortunately Andrew got in teh way of the really funny pic :?

Still the mash was over and the kettles full . . .volunteers were thin on the ground to dig out the tun. . . Keep digging Carl and we will find someone to take over

The waste grain was transfered into these tubs to feed the cows . . . keep the cows Well fed as they go great on the BBQ :party:

Keep Digging Carl . . . Someone will be along soon

In the meantime Blink decided that cleaning the FV would be a really good way of avoiding digging out the mash tun

Blink you need a scrubby to clean the FV!!