1st all grain attempt...aghhh!

[Waylander87]

So. All grain eh? What a nightmare first time round!
I've been following this link:
http://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=493

But I'm actually doing a Golden ale as follows:

Marris otter pale malt: 4040g
Wheat malt: 100g
Crystal malt: 220g

Challenger hops: 32g @9mins
Golding hops: 20g @ 10mins
Golding hops: 20g @ 0mins

Aiming for 23ltrs at the end of this.

Having started at 2.30pm today, I'm now at "wait for it to chuffing boil".
Added 11ltrs to my mashtun and added grains. Left for 90mins.

Started to sparge and realised id be here all night. Gave up sparging (my 35ltr HLT needed to be refilled ~3 times)
I got to 33ltrs (23 + 10ltrs wastage due to head space/hops/evaporation).
Now I'm boiling it, adding hops to the schedule above and crossing everything.

Question is: have I ruined the beer (and my day) by not following the "how to"? I've clearly not come close to any sort of grain/equipment efficiency.
But I feel I've migrated from "enjoyable hobby" to "why would someone do this to themselves?!"
Given the forum (and others) I assume I must have done something wrong. What?

HELP!

 

[dennisking]

I fly sparge, normally takes 45mins to an hour.

 

[Algernon]

So. All grain eh? What a nightmare first time round!
I've been following this link:
http://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=493

But I'm actually doing a Golden ale as follows:

Marris otter pale malt: 4040g
Wheat malt: 100g
Crystal malt: 220g

Challenger hops: 32g @9mins
Golding hops: 20g @ 10mins
Golding hops: 20g @ 0mins

Aiming for 23ltrs at the end of this.

Having started at 2.30pm today, I'm now at "wait for it to chuffing boil".
Added 11ltrs to my mashtun and added grains. Left for 90mins.

Started to sparge and realised id be here all night. Gave up sparging (my 35ltr HLT needed to be refilled ~3 times)
I got to 33ltrs (23 + 10ltrs wastage due to head space/hops/evaporation).
Now I'm boiling it, adding hops to the schedule above and crossing everything.

Question is: have I ruined the beer (and my day) by not following the "how to"? I've clearly not come close to any sort of grain/equipment efficiency.
But I feel I've migrated from "enjoyable hobby" to "why would someone do this to themselves?!"
Given the forum (and others) I assume I must have done something wrong. What?

HELP!

I doubt the beer is ruined. It's hard to ruin beer, thankfully. I know, I have tried.

I am a bit mystified by the endless sparge and especially the refill of the HLT. Do you have some kind of filter to allow the MT to drain effectively? I BIAB so I don't have the same set-up as you, no sparging for a start, but I am pretty sure people use false-bottoms or mesh grilles etc to act as a grain filter. I wonder if you ended up with a "stuck mash"?

As for the time taken, it kind of does take a while. Some people do it to themselves to escape the hurly-burly of home and family. Some do it for the challenge of making better beer than they can buy. Most of them eventually end up investing in kit that takes much of the effort out of it. Once you have the hang of it, it may take all day, but you aren't actually doing anything during the mash, or the boil.
Your first ever AG brew was unlikely to go swimmingly - my BIABs still take about 6 hours start to end. I bet your next one goes faster and more smoothly.
Make a note of all the things that went badly, or took too long, then look them up or ask around - there are bound to be solutions, or tips and suggestions at least.
Congrats on your first AG - it does make a difference from kits :

 

[Waylander87]

I have a 3 tier set up: HLT, mashtun, fermenter.

No idea why it's taking so long to sparge. Maybe HLT size (35lt), maybe newness vs expectations - maybe it's taken exactly the right amount of time and I'm too n00b to realise it.

Whatever the reason, I'll be making 23ltrs of some sort of golden ale; sod science, maths and repeatability. I'll settle for drinkable!

 

[dennisking]

Are you batch or fly sparging

 

[Waylander87]

As this is my first all grain I'm going to accept that sounding like an idiot is inevitable:

I ink I'm fly Sparging: T-shaped bar that spins as hot water passes through it, showering the grains.

 

[dennisking]

Yep that's fly sparge. I fly sparge and as I said should be around an hour. Don't give up the first time can always be the most painful. It will get quicker as you get more experience and develop a routine. I tend to start between 10 and 11 in the morning and finish around 4. I also prepare the water and grains the night before.

 

[Runwell-Steve]

That's fly sparging, the t shaped thing is the sparging arm.

Not sure why it took so long or why you had to refill your HLT.

I assume you started with your grain and water in the mash tun. While the mash is on you need to fill the HLT to about 25 litres ready for sparging.

Once the mash has finished connect the hlt tap to the sparging arm and set that up over the grain bed ready for sparging.

Open the tap on the mash tun to let the wort run out into the boiler, once there is about half an inch of water above the grain in the mash tun turn on the hlt tap and let sparging commence. It should only take at most an hour for all the water to run through.

You probably need approx 30 litre at the start of the boil to end up with about 23 in the fermenter.

It is often easier to learn to brew by having a brew day with an experienced brewer. There is probably a brewer on here local to you that would be happy for you to tag along on a brew day.

 

[Waylander87]

Cheers. I thought it was fly sparging but didn't want to say so with conviction and prove to be a fool!

I think I've maybe tried to run before I can walk. New equipment, processes I don't fully understand - its all added time to the day.

Following the guide I linked I was trying to work out losses etc. and having just "finished" I can tell you that my maths was WAY out! 23ltr final + losses = 33ltrs (so 10ltr losses) - nope!
Did that and ony got to 20ltrs by the end, and even then only because I tilted a HLT of boiling water towards myself (10/10 for safety).

Correct in your assumption; I added 11ltrs of water and all the grain in the mashtun.
"Whilst the mash is on" in my case was leaving it covered for 90mins - mashtun wasn't heating. I then DIDN'T fill up the HLT - mistake number 139.

Maybe my biggest issue was sparging, I don't know if I was doing it "right".
I was aiming for an SG of 0.99, as per the guide I linked at the start of this thread (I got to 1.030 and got bored). Also JUST realised that I didn't temp corrected the reading....

How am I MEANT to sparge? Is it so the wort is to a gravity reading, or until the wort is a certain volume?

A final issue was the breakdown of my new thermometer. Bought specially and fell apart on the first brew! Stupid Chinese ebay!

All in all a shower of first brew problems. I guess I couldn't get WORSE at this...

 

[PD]

Hi...... sounds like a typical first brew.......
don't worry about it, you will have made drinkable beer I'm sure.

Have you read through this

viewtopic.php?f=30&t=493

Its what I followed on my 2nd brew day....( yes the first was like yours ! )

When you sit and break the proces down its not hard or complicated.....we weigh grain soak it in warm water for a while wash the grains through with hotter water and then boil it....Shimple. ha haaa.

I had problems getting a fly sparge to work in the beginning, so now I do a batch sparge which is a lot easier and les time consuming. Your mash tun is filled with the strike water and left for at least 90 mins ( or overnight if well insulated ) its topped up with a bit more water at mashing temp (80c) left for 15 mins stirred and drained off into a bucket, the process is repeated ...water added,stirred and drained, until you got your required amount, Its then all poured into the boier and boiled..... :thumb:

 

[pittsy]

Hi...... sounds like a typical first brew.......
don't worry about it, you will have made drinkable beer I'm sure.

Have you read through this

viewtopic.php?f=30&t=493

Its what I followed on my 2nd brew day....( yes the first was like yours ! )

When you sit and break the proces down its not hard or complicated.....we weigh grain soak it in warm water for a while wash the grains through with hotter water and then boil it....Shimple. ha haaa.

I had problems getting a fly sparge to work in the beginning, so now I do a batch sparge which is a lot easier and les time consuming. Your mash tun is filled with the strike water and left for at least 90 mins ( or overnight if well insulated ) its topped up with a bit more water at mashing temp (80c) left for 15 mins stirred and drained off into a bucket, the process is repeated ...water added,stirred and drained, until you got your required amount, Its then all poured into the boier and boiled..... :thumb:

I was going to say try batch sparge too , it is so easy to do and much quicker than fly is , not sure why folk do fly sparge to be honest after doing both :wha: oh and welcome over :thumb:

 

[Vossy1]

I was going to say try batch sparge too , it is so easy to do and much quicker than fly is , not sure why folk do fly sparge to be honest after doing both

I agree on the whole, but for those reading don't take it as a given that fly sparging can't be as quick as batch sparging. Using a different manifold and a suitable false bottom it is quite possible to fly type sparge as quickly as batch sparging but with crystal clear runnings...but that's another story and not one for 1st brews :grin:
Stick with it W, it will get easier, 1st brews can be mares...it's part of the fun :P ..may be worth seeing if anyone in your area is doing a brew day, it's always fun watching someone elses.

 

[dx4100]

Its a bit beyond me why people bother fly sparging given the extra time / effort involved. It only seems useful to me if you want to go for a very good efficiency. Personally would rather pay a few extra ££s on grain, speed everything up and make all a little less of an hassle. But its all horses for courses and each to their own :)

I would suggest to the OP that he tries batch sparging next time :thumb:

I have only ever batch sparged and my efficiency on my setup is around 58% which is very low really. So its not for you if that bothers you. Although other people have good much higher rates which batch sparging.

They key thing to keep in mind is that the resulting beer will be fantastic regardless of which method you use. :)

 

[jonnymorris]

As Vossy says, don't be put of fly sparging just 'cos it didn't go so well first time round. I've tried both and have returned to fly as my default method. Having said that, give batch sparging a try and see if that works for you.

Maybe my biggest issue was sparging, I don't know if I was doing it "right". I was aiming for an SG of 0.99, as per the guide I linked at the start of this thread (I got to 1.030 and got bored. How am I MEANT to sparge? Is it so the wort is to a gravity reading, or until the wort is a certain volume?

You want to aim for 30L (or whatever volume your recipe calls for) but stop if you hit 0.990 before getting there. I used to check the SG all the way but now only do so once or twice at the end. Some don't even bother measuring the SG but rather just taste the wort and if its sweet keep going. Stopping at 1.030 means you had plenty of sugary goodness still in the grains but it sounds like your issue was time more than anything else.

I sparge at the rate of about 0.5L per minute. That means it takes me about an hour from start to finish. Were you being too careful or was it just not coming out any faster?

p.s. When you crack it, fly sparging is effortless. I often feel like I should be doing something more than just watching it trickle in the top and out the bottom. There really isn't much to it.

 

[pittsy]

Its a bit beyond me why people bother fly sparging given the extra time / effort involved. It only seems useful to me if you want to go for a very good efficiency. Personally would rather pay a few extra ££s on grain, speed everything up and make all a little less of an hassle. But its all horses for courses and each to their own :)

I would suggest to the OP that he tries batch sparging next time :thumb:

I have only ever batch sparged and my efficiency on my setup is around 58% which is very low really. So its not for you if that bothers you. Although other people have good much higher rates which batch sparging.

They key thing to keep in mind is that the resulting beer will be fantastic regardless of which method you use. :)

I'm curious how your efficiency is so low , i batch sparge and i get 74/76% every batch

 

[Waylander87]

Have you read through this

viewtopic.php?f=30&t=493

Its what I followed on my 2nd brew day....( yes the first was like yours ! )

Yep, that's the guide I used for this brew. But I think I concentrated on the science too much rather than just having a go first time round.

Measured out my grain and hops.
Error: could have done this during the time the HLT needed to heat up, but was following the guide.

Measured all my losses:
HLT = 7.5ltrs
Loss to hops = 0.5ltrs (guesstimate from thread)
Loss to boil = 2ltrs (again, guesstimate)
Loss to grain = 4.4ltrs (4.358kgs of grain)
Loss to HLT = 7.5ltrs (second time round)

So totals 24ltrs of losses!
Add that to 23ltrs I want to end up with = 47ltrs. BUT! HLT only holds ~ 35 (to max line - ill over fill next time - and I found this out after I jugged 35ltrs into it by hand; big chunk of time there). Decided to just get on with it and refill HLT if needed.

Added 2.5ltrs of water per kg of grain, so rounded up that's 11ltrs in the mash tun. Added grain one scoop at a time. Stirred, put lid on and left for 90mins.

Error: I turned the HLT back on at 60mins, as per the guide, but I didn't fill it up - so I'm now forced to sparge with what was left, which wasn't enough...

Started Sparging. Ran out of water. Just filled HLT up to fill line from the hose (so no Camden tablet this time)

Error: no idea of temps at this stage as the cheap thermometer I bought off eBay gave up. Fail!

Started sparging again with whatever temp of water I had at this stage. Ended up with one fermenter 20ltrs full, and tother one 10ltrs. Decided I didn't know what I was doing and stopped.
I was aiming for a gravity of around 0.99 as per the guide, but
-I realise now that I didn't temp correct
-I don't have a trial jar so had to wait for the fmenter to be full enough...but that doesn't help with the gravity if the runnings at that moment in time!
-the HLT only holds 35ltrs, which is what is sat in my fermenters
-the guide recipe and mine are not the same
-it's late at night, I have neighbours and I've lost the will to live.

Dumped into empty HLT. Turned on. Boiled, added first hops in a bag. Set timer.
Got to the end, added hops at 0mins, left for 10 mins with power off, removed hops bag.
Realised I hadn't fitted the strainer inside my HLT!
Drained HLT into an fermenter through a sieve.
Only managed to get 20ltrs.
It's now midnight and I cannot be bothered to cool it, so I just shoved a lid and airlock onto it and went to bed feeling disenfranchised.

Today I will add yeast. And hope. :pray:

It was meant to be a golden ale similar to St. Peter's - but it looks pretty dark :?

So endeth a waking nightmare.

As for the post about sparging taking me ages, it was a combination of run rate through taps (angle of setup meant HLT hose got nipped) and having to reboil my HLT mid way through.

 

[jonnymorris]

Sounds like a great brew day. Could well be a great beer.

I was aiming for a gravity of around 0.99 as per the guide, but -I realise now that I didn't temp correct

0.990 takes into account that the wort is 65degC odd so no need to temp correct this one.... i.e. you should stop at 1.008 which is about 0.990 at 65degC.

 

[Waylander87]

Good to know, thanks!

On a positive note I feel I've made all my mistakes at once, so it's all down hill from here :)

 

[TheMumbler]

Good to know, thanks!

On a positive note I feel I've made all my mistakes at once, so it's all down hill from here :)

I'm sure you have plenty of mistakes ahead of you! Leaving a tap open is the classic. Don't take it to heart most of the people here will have a good disaster story. I believe Aleman is the reigning champion going by this thread.

 

[dennisking]

I certainly think you were thinking to hard. In 35 years of all grain brewing I have never once given a thought to loss to hops, loss to grain or head space or anything like that. Nice and simple I know with my set up to brew 23lts I start with 35lts of water. I heat up around 16lts to strike temperature and add to grain by underletting. I never use all of the 16lts but stop the flow when the consistency of the the mash is right, check temperature, occasionally need to add a little bit more water to correct but never very much. All the remaining water is used to sparge, end up with 23lts after boil. It is easy for me as I tend to brew around the same strength and when I do brew stronger beers then will alter things.