Help with a Saison - ginger and orange

DocAnna · Oct 28, 2024

A wee bit of advice if I may on how much and when to add fresh ginger to a saison?

I last made a saison back in that dimly remembered time BC (Before COVID) which was a Greg Hughes recipe I think. It was ok but not that special. I’d like to make a ginger and Citrus saison similar to the St Austell one after my daughters told me it remained her all time favourite beer. The St A one has ginger and citrus peel added - what I’m not sure about is how much and when to add the ginger. I know from cooking it can v rapidly loose flavour when cooked.

I’m think using it grated added as a hop stand but whether to carry it over into the fermenter or as a ‘dry hop’ I’m not sure. The St A one has Citra in it but I’ve not much of that so was thinking of using lemon drop and Madarina bavaria instead?

Thanks

MashBag · Oct 29, 2024

Ginger powder has lost its best and is very very fluffy to rack out. Use fresh, finely sliced. Secondary in a weighted bag. No idea about volumes.
You could give it a week and taste. Treat like oak dominoes, gently, but remember you can't take it out

Ginger, like garlic suppress yeast. So use after fermentation.

Bitter orange is best, fresh or dried. Or quality marmalade

seriously.

Fresh. An easy peeler used side to side with a gentle push, gets the best of any citrus peel, without the pith which adds bitter flavours. Then warm it in a concentrated simple syrup. Use this as a priming sugar. You can work out the volume to taste. Syringe & 100ml glass of beer.

DocAnna · Oct 29, 2024

MashBag said:
Ginger powder has lost its best and is very very fluffy to rack out. Use fresh, finely sliced. Secondary in a weighted bag. No idea about volumes.
You could give it a week and taste. Treat like oak dominoes, gently, but remember you can't take it out

Ginger, like garlic suppress yeast. So use after fermentation.

Bitter orange is best, fresh or dried. Or quality marmalade seriously.

Fresh. An easy peeler used side to side with a gentle push, gets the best of any citrus peel, without the pith which adds bitter flavours. Then warm it in a concentrated simple syrup. Use this as a priming sugar. You can work out the volume to taste. Syringe & 100ml glass of beer.

Ooh concentrated good advice thanks

. I was worried about contamination by adding it to the wort cold, but adding to secondary reduces the risk once there’s a bit of alcohol there. I’m feeling a bit dim for not thinking about adding in a mesh bag to mean I could remove once the taste was where I’d like it.

Re the priming sugar issue, is it really necessary to bottle condition for carbonating a saison? I’ve read that it’s all authentic and the like but that’s never really bothered me and I haven’t bottle conditioned for at least 5 years. If that’s a yes then I might see about ‘can conditioning’ which would be a bit new but better than bottling, which is my absolutely least favourite thing about home brewing

.

Clint · Oct 29, 2024

From past experience I wouldn't hesitate to email St Austell Brewery as they have always helped when I've asked regarding recipes and water treatment.

Agentgonzo · Oct 29, 2024

DocAnna said:
Re the priming sugar issue, is it really necessary to bottle condition for carbonating a saison?

I can't see it as necessary. The flavour impact from bottle conditioning is pretty minimal.

MashBag said:
Ginger, like garlic suppress yeast

You put garlic in beer?

Sadfield · Oct 29, 2024

I think it depends on what flavour impact. Root or powder late in the boil perhaps, to get rid of the rawness. Candied stem ginger in the FV might be an option to consider, it might give a finer flavour.

Clint · Oct 29, 2024

Root and powder are completely different. In cooking you wouldn't sub one for the other.

MashBag · Oct 29, 2024

You could of course use a natural orange essence.

MashBag · Oct 29, 2024

Agentgonzo said:
You put garlic in beer?

Not personally, but there was a chap on the Isle of Wight who did.

I think you can get garlic wine too and before you ask... 'no'

...
Nearly as bad as Christmas pudding wine.... Eeeyuuuk

lancon · Oct 30, 2024

For what it's worth, I found using galangal rather than ginger worked best to give that ginger taste, added secondary. I chop up citrus bring to boil in pan then cool and chuck in.
MB and lemondrop work wonderfully together.

An Ankoù · Oct 30, 2024

Agentgonzo said:
I can't see it as necessary. The flavour impact from bottle conditioning is pretty minimal.

You put garlic in beer?

Can't be too careful at Hallowe'en.

An Ankoù · Oct 30, 2024

DocAnna said:
A wee bit of advice if I may on how much and when to add fresh ginger to a saison?

I last made a saison back in that dimly remembered time BC (Before COVID) which was a Greg Hughes recipe I think. It was ok but not that special. I’d like to make a ginger and Citrus saison similar to the St Austell one after my daughters told me it remained her all time favourite beer. The St A one has ginger and citrus peel added - what I’m not sure about is how much and when to add the ginger. I know from cooking it can v rapidly loose flavour when cooked.

I’m think using it grated added as a hop stand but whether to carry it over into the fermenter or as a ‘dry hop’ I’m not sure. The St A one has Citra in it but I’ve not much of that so was thinking of using lemon drop and Madarina bavaria instead?

Thanks

Belvoir Ginger Cordial, is I think, just pressed ginger and sugar. The sugar will ferment away leaving just the ginger. Add it to the green beer until you're satisfied with the flavour. The orange peel should be added about 10 minutes before the end of the boil. I'd start with 10g per 20 litres. If it's not enough you can always make a "tea", but you can't really judge spice additions until the beer is carbonated and mature.

MCRBrew · Oct 30, 2024

Lidl "Deluxe" ginger cordial includes chilli in the ingredients and at the level they use it really enhances the ginger "bite". Might be an idea?

More info here:

https://uk-gd.openfoodfacts.org/product/4056489898146/ginger-cordial-deluxe-lidl

DocAnna · Oct 30, 2024

Thank you lots

.

MashBag said:
Ginger, like garlic suppress yeast. So use after fermentation.

Bitter orange is best, fresh or dried. Or quality marmalade seriously.

Fresh. An easy peeler used side to side with a gentle push, gets the best of any citrus peel, without the pith which adds bitter flavours. Then warm it in a concentrated simple syrup. Use this as a priming sugar. You can work out the volume to taste. Syringe & 100ml glass of beer.

I think I'm going to go with fresh Ginger and citrus peel in honey or syrup warmed to about 70 and hold for a minute then add to secondary... you know I like to make things a bit complicated. More seriously though I really don't want to be adding odd moulds or yeasts with the ginger.

Clint said:
From past experience I wouldn't hesitate to email St Austell Brewery as they have always helped when I've asked regarding recipes and water treatment.

I rather hassled Rob Orton back in 2022 for info on Korev their lager, so would feel a bit bad about now emailing about the Sayzon. There is quite a bit of detail already on their site, and I'm aiming for something alike rather than identical.

lancon said:
For what it's worth, I found using galangal rather than ginger worked best to give that ginger taste, added secondary. I chop up citrus bring to boil in pan then cool and chuck in.
MB and lemondrop work wonderfully together.

Interesting idea, not sure about galangal and since it's primarily for my daughter I'll maybe try that as a second batch. Thanks for the reassurance about the hops

An Ankoù said:
Belvoir Ginger Cordial, is I think, just pressed ginger and sugar. The sugar will ferment away leaving just the ginger. Add it to the green beer until you're satisfied with the flavour. The orange peel should be added about 10 minutes before the end of the boil. I'd start with 10g per 20 litres. If it's not enough you can always make a "tea", but you can't really judge spice additions until the beer is carbonated and mature.

I like this idea with the ginger cordial though like to use fresh ingredients if I can, I might just try a bit of the cordial in it anyway after making it to see if more ginger flavour works

. I had planned on adding the orange peel at the end of the boil much as you've suggested but think I'm going to go with pasterising and add to secondary to try to minimise volatile loss from the zest.

Sadfield · Oct 30, 2024

MashBag said:
Ginger, like garlic suppress yeast. So use after fermentation.

How does ginger beer ferment then? Or, a Ginger Bug starter work?

MashBag · Oct 30, 2024

Good question. No idea.

Nicks90 · Nov 2, 2024

I did a ginger beer and it took aaaaaaages to ferment out.
Bunch of fresh ginger finely diced, boiled with 0.5kg sugar and 5l water and used a cider yeast. Must have taken about 3 weeks to get to final gravity. It was nice though

Jim Brewster · Nov 5, 2024

It sounds a nice beer. I made a ginger beer with a ton of ginger, really really fired. I boiled it up as a tea separately alongside the brew and added it in through a seive towards the end of the boil. I'm not sure if it affected the yeast as it was a low attenuation yeast anyway but it was one of my favourite beers that I've done.

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