Clever priming sugar required

I want to half fill 2 cornies and fully prime them.

But how much?

23l batch. 11.5l per corny.
Which is closer to 23 bottles
23 teaspoons = 115g sugar
Basic maths does seem a lot, but I have a big empty space to pressurise?

MashBag said:

I want to half fill 2 cornies and fully prime them.

But how much?

23l batch. 11.5l per corny.
Which is closer to 23 bottles
23 teaspoons = 115g sugar
Basic maths does seem a lot, but I have a big empty space to pressurise?

Click to expand...

Do what I do and fill one corny and bottle the rest. 8 pints that you can hide away and discover months/years down the road.

I recently found 4 pint bottles of an unknown lager I'd made around 1997 in my shed. Were in a crate that was mostly empties.
Two were flat and went down the drain. One of the remaining two was still sealed and I tasted it. Not much flavour, but was definitely beer. The other one was similar but a bit less carbonated.

It doesn't have to be clever. You can aim to over prime a corny and then use the PRV to vent of some CO2 to the right level. As they do with venting cask.

Sadfield said:

It doesn't have to be clever. You can aim to over prime a corny and then use the PRV to vent of some CO2 to the right level. As they do with venting cask.

Click to expand...

Yes, I thought about that. I have got both gauges high and low just wondered if I can be a bit more accurate to start with?

As you've asked me specifically in another thread:

Prime at what level?

Well, I think I know you were asking for "cask" levels? About 0.5g per litre, gives about 1.2-1.3 volumes (presuming you ferment beer out before casking?). So, for headspace in half full cask, add another "volume" ... that's about 0.5+0.4g per litre of sugar. Say, 9g sugar in a 19-20L Corny with 10L beer.

BUT!

Get it a bit wrong (or drink about 1/3 without priming again) and you are using some form of manual (hand) pump, (and presuming this is your "no gas cylinder" caper) and the priming sugar gas runs out (it will, leaving atmospheric pressure in the cask), the pump will pull air in past the Corny keg lid seal! And the beer goes off a few days later.

You could add x2 the headspace sugar, but the beer will be (initially at least) very fizzy.


KEG
The usual (per litre) plus same again for headspace. No pump problem ... no gas, no beer comes out tap! Add same again of sugar (x3 what normally added) to ensure right gas at end (but fizzy to start).

Don't use any form of electric pump for dispense.


Have I made you think again? I hope so.

Thank you. I was thinking no hand pump just a party tap, for initial trial.

Don't mind a bit of fizz to start.
I do have gas to hand, so no beer will be harmed in the making of this fiasco.

Was planning to set 50psi on the spundy, and then drop to 5 on the low range gauge for dispense. This is ale not lager.

Wanted to get a better understanding before I buy anything... Beer engine or pluto gun.

Should we try different things of each corny?

What do you plan to do with the 9-10 litres of air in the head space? If left over your beer while it ferments (to produce your gas pressure) is it likely to cause oxidation? Asking for a friend

I am not expecting oxidation, this will be live active beer day 6. Will be fine. Could vent a bit once it gets going.

I'll repeat @Buffers brewery's post: "What do you plan to do with the 9-10 litres of air in the head space?".

Unless this is a "proof of concept" of eventually being rid of a CO2 cylinder (which is what I'd thought it was) you are taking a risk with "oxidation" ... Story time! Although it's one I think I've used before ... hey, I'm an old geezer now and repeating me self is just one of those "things":

I was testing my "field hand-pump" setup. A 2L SS "growler" as beer container. The "gas in" disconnect (it had Corny Keg style disconnects and posts) was crammed with cotton wool to be my "soft spile". Drank half than disconnects removed and growler put back in car for 20 mile trip home. Reconnected in evening ... the beer was undrinkable.


Any headspace should be purged (with CO2) before sealing the keg and while serving. If not moved the beer tolerates a couple of days with the air allowed in, but not much longer.

There's no headspace in a cask when it leaves the brewery. the casks aren't moved once being served in a pub.


==========

An' the question you asked of me earlier:

If you're resigned to using gas, get an LPG regulator. A Clesse 50-150mbar (set at "5" for starters, about 100mbar). Your existing regulator is retained as the Primary set at 2-4 Bar. The Primary can't maintain 7PSI never mind 5PSI. You can set it, but it'll drift off within an hour or so. There's no way ... dropping about 850+PSI to 5PSI, the Primary regulator's hardware is just way too crude. Some people do claim they can do it ... (geesh; and it's me who supposedly has the broken brain ... ? Don't be one of them!).

MashBag said:

Thank you. I was thinking no hand pump just a party tap, for initial trial.

Don't mind a bit of fizz to start.
I do have gas to hand, so no beer will be harmed in the making of this fiasco.

Was planning to set 50psi on the spundy, and then drop to 5 on the low range gauge for dispense. This is ale not lager.

Wanted to get a better understanding before I buy anything... Beer engine or pluto gun.

Should we try different things of each corny?

Click to expand...

If you are going to use a spunding valve and priming sugar.
I would over prime and set your spunding valve relative to the temperature and your required CO2 volume. Using one of these calculators.

https://www.hopsteiner.com/uk/psi-calculator/

https://drhansbrewery.com/beercarbonationcalculator/

peebee said:

Any headspace should be purged (with CO2) before sealing the keg and while serving. If not moved the beer tolerates a couple of days with the air allowed in, but not much longer.

There's no headspace in a cask when it leaves the brewery. the casks aren't moved once being served in a pub.


==========

An' the question you asked of me earlier:

If you're resigned to using gas, get an LPG regulator. A Clesse 50-150mbar (set at "5" for starters, about 100mbar). Your existing regulator is retained as the Primary set at 2-4 Bar. The Primary can't maintain 7PSI never mind 5PSI. You can set it, but it'll drift off within an hour or so. There's no way ... dropping about 850+PSI to 5PSI, the Primary regulator's hardware is just way too crude. Some people do claim they can do it ... (geesh; and it's me who supposedly has the broken brain ... ? Don't be one of them!).

Click to expand...

@peebee

Two thoughts spring to mind...

Purging Headspace. So are you saying it's OK if I don't move the corny.. Or put another way, I should refrain from taking it on dog walks?

Propane reg. Thinking a lot about this since reading your treatise. Does it still apply if I turn the gas off except for pulling a pint?

Davegase said:

If you are going to use a spunding valve and priming sugar.
I would over prime and set your spunding valve relative to the temperature and your required CO2 volume. Using one of these calculators.

https://www.hopsteiner.com/uk/psi-calculator/

https://drhansbrewery.com/beercarbonationcalculator/

Click to expand...

Thanks for these. That saves a bit of excel.

My plan is to over prime, vent some, and aim for 30/40psi for standing storage.

It will then come into the house and be vented (only movement). Using the high pressure spunding valve, reduce to 5psi. I expect it will need to settle for a day or two.

After that I will swap to a low pressure gauge for accuracy & get 5psi for dispense. I have a slighlty modified party tap, on a couple of turns around the corny.

Its a hoppy golden ale. Not chilled. Ambient will be 18c

Any thoughts?

MashBag said:

Thanks for these. That saves a bit of excel.

My plan is to over prime, vent some, and aim for 30/40psi for standing storage.

It will then come into the house and be vented (only movement). Using the high pressure spunding valve, reduce to 5psi. I expect it will need to settle for a day or two.

After that I will swap to a low pressure gauge for accuracy & get 5psi for dispense. I have a slighlty modified party tap, on a couple of turns around the corny.

Its a hoppy golden ale. Not chilled. Ambient will be 18c

Any thoughts?

Click to expand...

30 to 40 PSI seems way too high.
I believe you're looking for a cask ale level of carbonation.
The Dr Hans calculator has an extensive list of beer styles to show the correct volume CO2 for each style.
If I were going for cask ale I'd probably set the spunding valve to achieve 1.2 vol.

What difference will it make?

MashBag said:

What difference will it make?

Click to expand...

30 PSI at 20°c will carbonate to 2.65 vol (a gassy lager level).

Davegase said:

30 PSI at 20°c will carbonate to 2.65 vol (a gassy lager level).

Click to expand...

And it's very hard to get that out. Worn that T-shirt and eaten that pie.

MashBag said:

I am not expecting oxidation, this will be live active beer day 6. Will be fine. Could vent a bit once it gets going.

Click to expand...

It'll be interesting to see how this pans out. The yeast can (obviously) only metabolise any oxygen that's in the beer. Over the course of the remaining days of fermentation, some of the oxygen in the headspace will dissolve into the beer, and some/most of this will be metabolised by the fermenting yeast.
But once fermentation is complete, it'll stop metabolising the oxygen, at which point I expect there will still be a good amount of oxygen in the 10L of headspace (less if you vent access pressure, but I don't think you'll be able to get rid of it all). From this point onwards, oxygen from the headspace will continue to dissolve in the beer and cause it to spoil.

There are a lot of unknowns:
* The rate at which O2 diffuses into the fermenting beer (though this can be calculated as I'm sure generic gas laws etc are well understood)
* The rate at which the remaining fermenting yeast will metabolise this O2
* How quickly the O2 in solution can begin to spoil the beer before it is consumed by the yeast
* The proportion of remaining O2 that will be vented out of your spunding valve (if any)
* When the yeast stops consuming oxygen

Personally, I'm not convinced you'll get drinkable beer out of it, but very interested to see how it turns out

Larse said:

And it's very hard to get that out. Worn that T-shirt and eaten that pie.

Click to expand...

Will it no equalise in the corny when the other half is 5psi?(nature abhors a vaccuum and all that)

MashBag said:

Will it no equalise in the corny when the other half is 5psi?(nature abhors a vaccuum and all that)

Click to expand...

Yeah, it will. But the hard part is trying to control it. If I remember when I had to do it, it was a process of venting some pressure and leaving it for a day or so, rinse and repeat. And in between, you need to decant some to check your progress. Can easily end up with no carbonation at all if you're not careful.

Agentgonzo said:

There are a lot of unknowns:
* The rate at which O2 diffuses into the fermenting beer (though this can be calculated as I'm sure generic gas laws etc are well understood)
* The rate at which the remaining fermenting yeast will metabolise this O2
* How quickly the O2 in solution can begin to spoil the beer before it is consumed by the yeast
* The proportion of remaining O2 that will be vented out of your spunding valve (if any)
* When the yeast stops consuming oxygen

Personally, I'm not convinced you'll get drinkable beer out of it, but very interested to see how it turns out

Click to expand...

A agree with you about the unknowns. Tbh oxidisation due to the void hasn't concerned me till now. This is 20c just fermented ale going in, so the sugar will feed the yeast and they will burst into life quickly.

#1. I could set a lower spund pressure and physics suggests the o2 should be vented first.

#2. I could leave it open for say 6 hours to get the o2 away

#3. Get it up to pressure and vent?


I am doing 2 half's . We can do each one differently? What do you think would be a good test?