Hydrogen Vs BEV cars.

Alastair70 · Oct 18, 2024

Rodcx500z said:
Not if they move as fast as Musky boy

He repackaged an existing technology, hydrogen isn’t coming to the mass car market any time soon, or if it does it’ll be a waste.
There are great applications for hydrogen; eg. blue H powering carbon capture and fuelling local public transport but they’re, ahem, 5-10 years away.

Rodcx500z · Oct 18, 2024

Smaller than a battery pack and less damaging to the planet

Alastair70 · Oct 18, 2024

Rodcx500z said:
Smaller than a battery pack and less damaging to the planet

I beg to differ; how do you make, package and transport the hydrogen? This is like when the ICE people overlook the carbon footprint of extracting, refining and transporting fossil fuels and only focusing on tailpipe emissions.

Alastair70 · Oct 18, 2024

In simple terms, almost all hydrogen currently available is grey hydrogen - basically, another refined fossil fuel that is dependant on other fossil fuels for the refining process.

5% of currently available hydrogen is blue hydrogen - a refined fossil fuel but with carbon capture factored in.

We do not have a reliable source of green hydrogen at present - hydrogen produced by the hydrolysis of water using renewable energy, and hence, not dependant on fossil fuels that have to be extracted, refined and transported.

You cannot be a credible proponent of Hydrogen fuel if you don’t understand these distinctions and can factor them into your arguments.

Chippy_Tea · Oct 19, 2024

Larse - Not that small

The top one is for cars the other is for other applications as mentioned in the video i posted -

"These cartridges are not just for cars Toyota envisages them powering everything from your home to outdoor ventures"

JockyBrewer · Oct 19, 2024

Alastair70 said:
In simple terms, almost all hydrogen currently available is grey hydrogen - basically, another refined fossil fuel that is dependant on other fossil fuels for the refining process.

5% of currently available hydrogen is blue hydrogen - a refined fossil fuel but with carbon capture factored in.

We do not have a reliable source of green hydrogen at present - hydrogen produced by the hydrolysis of water using renewable energy, and hence, not dependant on fossil fuels that have to be extracted, refined and transported.

You cannot be a credible proponent of Hydrogen fuel if you don’t understand these distinctions and can factor them into your arguments.

But that's not to say that you couldn't produce green/blue hydrogen if required, similar to saying that many EVs are ultimately powered by fossil fuel power stations?

Alastair70 · Oct 19, 2024

JockyBrewer said:
many EVs are ultimately powered by fossil fuel power stations?

Not quite. Around 33% of the UK electric is still fossil fuel based, 13% nuclear and the remainder is renewable. The renewable percentage has been trending up significantly over the last decade.

Also, a lot of EV owners like me farm their own electrons. My weekly mileage means my EV runs almost entirely on ‘shop bought’ electrons, but if I did a more typical 20-30 miles per day my solar panels would produce more electricity than I use (except on brew days!).

Green hydrogen doesn’t have an economically sustainable application yet. Blue hydrogen could have, but it involves carbon capture catching up, Given that we’re past the tipping point where the worlds population of trees etc. can no longer keep up with the CO2 produced globally, improving carbon capture technology is now crucial.

Nicks90 · Oct 19, 2024

I am all for alternative energy sources for vehicles, passenger, haulage, freight, rail, ships - but whatever we develop and use HAS to use green energy to produce. Or with the relative poor efficiency of producing and using these alternative fuels, you may as well just stick to petrol/diesel

So when we finally have an excess of renewables and being in a position to produce lots of excess during the day and store it for use overnight, and STILL have an excess - then and only then will I entertain ammonia or hydrogen as a viable (albeit horribly in efficient) alternative
We are a long way off being in that position,so until then the most efficient means of transport available is ev. End of.

Larse · Oct 19, 2024

Chippy_Tea said:
The top one is for cars the other is for other applications as mentioned in the video i posted -

"These cartridges are not just for cars Toyota envisages them powering everything from your home to outdoor ventures"

View attachment 105002

View attachment 105001

View attachment 105003

In that case, can't see them providing much fuel. Is there any data as to how far they can take you? I did look, but couldn't find anything.

Chippy_Tea · Oct 19, 2024

Larse said:
In that case, can't see them providing much fuel.

On what do you base that assumption?

Larse · Oct 19, 2024

Chippy_Tea said:
On what do you base that assumption?

Size. How many litres of hydrogen does that thing hold? 5?

JockyBrewer · Oct 19, 2024

Alastair70 said:
Not quite. Around 33% of the UK electric is still fossil fuel based, 13% nuclear and the remainder is renewable. The renewable percentage has been trending up significantly over the last decade.

Am I missing something here, or couldn’t that same electricity production be used to create hydrogen?

JockyBrewer · Oct 19, 2024

Larse said:
Size. How many litres of hydrogen does that thing hold? 5?

What pressure are you measuring volume?

Larse · Oct 19, 2024

JockyBrewer said:
What pressure are you measuring volume?

It was a question. I have no idea.

Larse · Oct 19, 2024

So I've looked this up. Hydrogen cars will have a number of tanks (2 or 3) which usually hold about 2Kg of hydrogen each. The size of these tanks is variable but the average is about 35cm in diameter and 70cm in length. One Kg of hydrogen will give you about 60 miles range.

The pressure in those tanks is up to 700 bar. 10,000psi.

Based on those sizes, Toyota's cartridge couldn't hold more than a fraction of a kilo.

Larse · Oct 19, 2024

Clint said:
When will the nuclear power cell off Terminator be invented?

I think that's been dropped in favour of Iron Man's arc reactor.

Chippy_Tea · Oct 20, 2024

Larse said:
Size. How many litres of hydrogen does that thing hold? 5?

I haven't a clue i have only seen the info we have all seen in this thread, i am sure Toyota wouldn't go to the trouble of making these cartridges and the hydrogen power plant if they were not fit for purpose.

MashBag · Oct 20, 2024

Chippy_Tea said:
View attachment 105002

View attachment 105001

Hang on... But those two look a completely different size.

Chippy_Tea · Oct 20, 2024

The pressure in those tanks is up to 700 bar. 10,000psi.
Based on those sizes, Toyota's cartridge couldn't hold more than a fraction of a kilo.

There is no info on the cartridge capacity but the quote below was left in a video on the subject.

The hydrogen is not being burnt in a Hydrogen internal combustion engine its being used to charge the battery that powers the electric motor.

This isn't meant for an engine, but a fuel stack. More efficient than burning it in an engine, but no idea how much more runtime it would give.

Chippy_Tea · Oct 20, 2024

MashBag said:
Hang on... But those two look a completely different size.

That was my thinking, unless the rendering of the vehicle is actually a bus, not a car

Smell for car big for other uses -

The answer was in the video i posted in #26.

Hydrogen Vs BEV cars.

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